Justin Michael has proven techniques for B2B businesses. Hundreds of companies agree. | Rise Grind Repeat 096


Outbound sales are some of the hardest marketing there is. That’s why Justin Michael has made a science of it, studying what works and using that knowledge to help his clients. One of his top tips? The power of interacting within 24 hours after a contact, with email, voicemail, LinkedIn and Twitter. β€œI’ll do a lot very quickly,” he says. β€œI call it a cluster. It creates a bee-swarm effect.”

Justin Michael also relies on behavioral science to maximize the impact of contacts like emails and images, knowing how much time a client is likely to spend down to the tenth of a second. Best of all, he shares what he knows for free, on his site, on Reddit, … and RGR!


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Justin Michael consulting sales

| Rise Grind Repeat 096 |


No one can really buy anything you know people love to buy they hate to be sold. They they buy on emotion for rational emotional reasons Do they like you for some reason, their gut and then they close on the logic.


Today’s episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat, we talked to Justin, Justin Michael Consulting, we discussed the right ways that b2b companies should be doing their cold outreach. Let’s dive right in. Justin, thank you so much for being on another episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat I’m, I’m excited just doing a little bit. Uh, you know, looking at what you’re all about, we’re kind of going through the process on building out our b2b efforts, our sales and bizdev. department and I’m sure we’ll get a get a few tips. From Yeah, before we get, you know, nerd out too much on on that front would love to just kind of learn more about who you are a little bit about your background.


Yeah, so I’m Justin Michael, and somewhat of a futurist, and an author, a coach and a trainer. I did sales for 20 years, and worked for companies like Salesforce and LinkedIn, but a lot of small startup company that no one’s ever heard of. And that advice, probably 100 startups. And I really focused my career on the top end of the funnel, outbound business development, cold calling cold emailing in tech stacks. So I’ve written a book about technology quotient, or EQ, which is distinct from IQ and EQ. Because what I’ve found is it’s the ability to understand these modern technology systems that gave me an edge in companies. So you know, if two sellers are going out of market, and one’s using traditional, you know, just calls and emails, and another masters, these modern systems, it really is a tremendous edge. I mean, you can send, you know, hundreds, if not 1000s of emails and maintain quality and personalization at scale. And so it’s kind of, you know, a really unique element to my work. And my writing is I’ve kind of become known for Sales Automation, and this new field of revenue operations. Yeah, so I live in Santa Barbara, California, and b2b is my life. I do a lot of podcasting and blogging and writing and I have a kind of a society called salesborg.ai. It’s a Discord server with 1500 people in it. Then we go in there, we tear down we tear down emails, we do cold calling, and yeah, just recently hosted a cold call competition at revenue garage calm if you want to check that one out.


Now that definitely will and not love, love everything you’re saying. I mean, we’ve been working hard. I mean, over the last six, seven months, just putting a lot more focus on the biz dev efforts. And I mean, we’ve switched different technologies, but trying to balance personalization with scale. And we went down the route of super personal and call I send out a few emails a day down to no personalization sending out a ton and kind of finding some happy medium grounds. But I do love that, you know, you mentioned the top of funnel and that’s something that we love as a marketing agency, or the brand awareness side, but from a sales perspective, I guess, what does that look like? or What does that mean? You know, top of funnel from a sales perspective,


the special is opening is the new closing, which I took from Anthony annarino is become very difficult, especially in the Fortune 1000, even to get a meeting is because with the explosion of the automation tech, the C level executives and decision makers who hold the p&l are getting buffeted, like 250 emails per day. So it becomes challenging to even get the meeting. And because there’s so much information on the internet available, people can do a lot of research. Like I know there’s the CB study that buyers are 57% for the buying cycle. So it becomes an art form. To be able to predictably generate meetings and generate opportunities. Not to say it’s not hard to close a deal and then negotiate but you find there’s weak and anemic pipelines, especially post pandemic. Everyone’s sitting at home sending you know blitzing emails, sending a ton of messages on LinkedIn. And you know, the frankly not enough people are cold calling so there’s an edge. For me if you manually send emails and you mainly make phone calls, it’s very much a dark ages mentality. Everything I’m doing is you know, calling for phone numbers at a time so 200 dials in an hour using systems like connecting cell parallel assisted dialing, or systems like you know, outreach sales loft, groove, Zan, ring DNA, it goes on and on, which is sales engagement platform, the ability to pre program your email touches and customize them or persona. So I think that opening is a very hard problem. It doesn’t mean that you don’t have to be great at asking questions, doing discovery and really be trained on the whole sport. I’m a big proponent of training people on sales and taking young people through the entire funnel, not just relegating them to Pure sales development for SDR work, but I’ve really carved my brand on the top of the funnel problem. Because of the unique acute nature of you know how painful it is, I mean, nine out of 10 companies I meet where they don’t have enough opportunities, they don’t have enough business. And their sales team does not have enough meetings every week, they’re selling about 36% of the time, 40% of the time.


I mean, everything you’re mentioning, again, is is we’ve kind of kind of felt it going through our our own evolution of trying to build our biz dev efforts. And I mean, we’ve gone from, what is it? Is it a phone call email, how soon after, do you leave? You know, voicemail drop, whatever it is really trying to identify what that cadence is. And I think, you know, we have a couple b2b companies as well. And you know, we work in the marketing side, but always interested to hear what they’re doing from a bizdev. perspective. And that’s they’re always struggling with what type of email that we send on that first touch point. How long after do we send the next one? I guess without giving your secret sauce away? I mean, is Do you have any insights into maybe get some companies thinking a different way on what that that timeline looks like in between communications? What is the best form of communication? Or is it a combination of all forms of communication?


Yeah, so I’ve been pretty open source with my techniques that put out guides and put them on Reddit. So I really don’t have any secret sauce. I guess certain people want to make this intellectual property. But you know, there’s some popular systems from the goji sequence.


Over at outreach to things like, you know, Josh brown and backhauling, my sequences have been more assertive, I tend to I was a case study in a book called Combo, Prospecting comboprospecting.com. And what I found is having very tight interactions in the first 24 hours is very powerful. So I’ll send an email day one, leave a voicemail, link, connect on LinkedIn, send a tweet. So I’ll do like a lot very quickly, which I call a cluster, it creates like a V swarm effect. So it’s very assertive in the first 24 hours. To me, I like to be very overt that I’m business to business seller contacting you. Because that, that to me, I just think is more. I don’t know, it’s more transparent. You know, I don’t want people to think that I’m actually doing marketing and trying to sneak into their inbox. Yeah, so Sam Nelson, he has blue hair, he did the goji outreach. So my sequences tend to follow very unique geometries. An email that is three sentences is processed with 3.3 seconds by the brain, the longer marketing emails we send is 13.3 seconds. I also were the first people ever to do visual prospecting. Like really focused on it, it’s very hard to get visuals like screenshots and PNGs and gifts, because it goes to spam. So I usually do like a first touch that’s very short, just a few sentences, a second one that says thoughts. And then a third that has a Venn diagram or something that looks more like Product Marketing. And that focus on visuals is because visuals are processed 60,000 times faster by the brain, and there’s a 90% higher retention rate by the brain than just pure text. Then I have a series of, you know, complimentary phone techniques, the way I leave voice messages, do video, prospecting, voicemail drops on LinkedIn. I’m doing a lot with multimedia with WhatsApp with text messaging, different b2c platforms you normally wouldn’t see in a sales cycle. So the main thing is it’s hyper short. We just think about the way that you work as a human being with all the people you care about the big decisions, you don’t send your significant other a three paragraph explanation. You send a text, right, you got WhatsApp, you got Instagram, you got Facebook Messenger, text messaging. And so you know, I think I was one of the first people to start a system where I’m using a sequencer, and I’m building these cases that look like text messages, and they look human. And they’re just these short form sentences are very, you know, conversational. And then using imagery. This, this is just not what you normally see, you normally see these bigger templates. And each paragraph has a description and a persuade and a certain psychology like oh, here’s an FDA, FBI hostage negotiation, here’s a reverse psychology and you’re doing all this stuff. And the problem is a prospect has no time. And these bigger emails, it’s like a heavy lift, so they can do a start. But the problem is all the personalization is being used. It’s like what’s the catch? So I’m not all about relevance at scale versus personalization scale, which is also very unique. relevance to me means what is the word pain? What is the business challenge? What is the work related personalization, so relevance is the flavor of personalization. When all these technology can be started, LinkedIn had this amazing thing was like, Oh, we can see the comic connection, or I can see that you love hiking. And so everyone use that almost like a gimmick and the prospects are literally, they’re completely desensitized by that. It’s like they’re not impressed that you know, their sports team. It doesn’t matter anymore. You know, they kind of like don’t waste my time, like, what is your solution? What can it actually do for me make money, save money, reduce risk, satisfy regulation, like why are you contacting me? Tell me what’s going on. So I’m super blunt. Super concise, and the simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. So that’s in a nutshell. And then I’m also really a huge fan of emotional resonance because I, no one can really buy anything. You know, people love to buy, they hate to be sold. They they buy on emotion for rational emotional reasons. Do they like you for some reason, their gut, and then they close on the logic. So a lot of the messaging now is cheese, I have a same client here. It’s exactly like your company, and they made 117% ROI. Well, the problem is, that’s a very logical left brain sort of thing that doesn’t it’s not actually why anyone buys anything, people don’t buy Tesla, because of the the logic of the drive train how efficient the battery is, it’s because it’s emotional like that. They’re inspired by Elon Musk. It’s like, they feel like a superhero. So for me, it’s about pain, it’s about fear, you can’t get people to change by attracting them to these numbers. You know, in these claims, it’s more like, my emails get super high open rates between 60 and 80%. Because it’s so short to get through the spam filter. And then to convert them is all about, you know, poking the wound, and then managing it, which is an expression I got from Scott Braden from chipstead. Ai, he did a cold emailing class on Udemy, that was downloaded 16,000 times focusing on emotion creates a polarity shift. And then with my cold call frameworks, what’s really crazy is the prospect is talking 95% of the time, every other cold call framework as you interrupt and then say the reason I’m calling interrupt talk about the seller, my framework is interrupt, get the seller talking get the buyer talking about the buyer. And so I have this really crazy set of pattern interrupts for cold calls that’s never been done in 20 years, it’s like three completely backward things that you do like goofy foot. And it hasn’t even been tested by Gong because it doesn’t exist anywhere. So my phone techniques have been really radical. But the problem is you can’t get anyone on the phone. As you know, you call 100 people the fortune 1000 you get to executive assistants, and it’s all voicemails. So the combo prospecting techniques, is a dovetail of the type of voicemail that links to get a 3x email rate. If you’re using connect and sell or a parallel assisted dialer, the weapon of mass conversations now you’re going to connect with 20 people live in an hour now we’ve got a shot with a live fire to start experimenting with different power shifts. You know, in the person asking the questions much like SPIN Selling is actually in control of the call. If the seller is talking, they’re out of control. Doesn’t matter how many down tones how loud if you’re in a suit, you’re standing up, this is all a fable, it’s a myth. Confidence has nothing to do with the phone. The phone is all about how you’re asking these very specific types of questions that are getting the person to open up. When they’re talking. They’re being disarmed, and you’re lowering friction, and then they can turn to go Wait, what’s your solution? And so the whole key to both these systems is your peaking interest in creating desire, it’s pull, you’re not convincing and persuading you’re igniting interest in the prospects of it’s their idea to become interested in you. And that’s I think my stuff is very, very radical, and just like jujitsu.


Now I love it. Lots of lots of you said that definitely in line with I mean, we have a copywriter and and really he’s big on pain, gain transformation. And before and when you’re trying to do the personalization, the I see you went to this school, I see you like this post and really trying to lean into that type of personalization, but realizing it wasn’t picking up traction. And when we went more towards, here’s your problem, here’s our solution, here’s how we can essentially help help get you on boarded. And really just changing some of the messaging sin a bit more and more traction. But I think one thing that he said that really sticks out is you know, whenever you’re trying to make a decision with your significant other not writing a huge paragraph, and I think getting into the recipients mind and really who they are, I think is a big thing. And one thing that we’ve gone to is more that paying game transformation, but trying to turn to also allude to the personalization. And where we’re going with that is whatever industry we’re going after the different I guess job titles or reaching out is going to have a different problem in their day to day and really trying to speak to that. So I guess how do you kind of go about leaning into that somewhat personalization, where here’s the problem knowing or understanding the industry or business, tying in that personalization, but also keeping scalability.


So it’s really weird like these other systems, you write these beautiful emails and you get a response like this is the best email I’ve read marketing loves it one prospect because I love this email. It’s amazing. But that’s how we’re trying to do high profile C-levels, people, decision makers, you read him like 3000 words, they respond to sentences, Hey, can you shorten this? Can you give me a few bullet points? What is this? Like? They just reject that? The decision makers you want to get to they don’t necessarily answer cold email. They’re not sitting around answering that. So you have to do something pretty radical pattern interrupt to stick out.


Yeah. So how do you keep some of that, that personalization know that you’re going to hit that pain while also being scalable, because I mean, it’s we were trying to spend way too much time Trying to find that personalization or what? What’s going to get this person to actually be interested? And then that was hindering the scalability part? I guess how do you how do you maintain that to be able to hit that problem that someone says, Okay, you got your the solution to me, but also be able to send out, you know, mass mass communications. Yeah, so


it’s not very scalable. If you research time, because like analysis, paralysis, you know, some of these things, it can take you days of studying and applying all the principles, I do relevance at scale. So what I do is I take like, if you had 1000, contacts, break it up by vertical, here’s FinTech. Here’s manufacturing, here’s aerospace, maybe you can do by vertical, maybe it’s by persona, here’s a VP of Marketing, here’s a VP of sales, in an outreach or sales loft, or, you know, a sales engagement platform, break it into these buckets of 100 or 200. People, and then make a message, per persona, that talks about social proof, like we work with similar companies to get this outcome with specificity. They had this challenge. And here’s the before after, right, like, you know, this is like using the exercise industry, like p90x like before the workouts and after, right. So it’s really critical that that you use pain and gain but you also profile where they were sitting before and then after, and then why it’s differentiated and the social proof. So what I’m doing is something called relevance at scale, what I’m not trying to do is take all 1000, to a custom field for employee growth, custom field connection in common custom field, that’s kind of generic personalization, about personal factors, that’s for Facebook. This is work related. This is like a specific type of word challenge that you solve, and relating it to the stakeholder in that vertical. That’s the way you can scale a relevance at scale. So that’s the way you can have maybe five different sequences running and each one has a different it’s blanket, but it’s for those 200 people. So it’s like you wrote to one person who’s a VP marketing and FinTech and this product is exactly this. And when you focus on what the solution, the outcome is, they have that problem that pain they’re sitting there trying to solve if you interrupt them, and then you go to the problem that you’re solving. First is some gimmick of like a sports team or alumni or when you hyper personalized, and you’re like, Hey, I saw you about the award. And you were rated, you know, Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year and 40 under 40. You know what they think they think? What’s the catch? Why is this person trying so hard? And so it’s what I call this as principle disinterest when you show too much hunger, too much interest in too much research. You look weak. You they swipe left, it’s like you’re a beta. alphas want to be challenged with insight where they want relevancy or quick, sustained get right to the point like you have a one hour elevator ride with Mark Cuban your three floors. What do you say to him? Do you praise him on the Dallas Mavericks? Do you fun over him about how cool he is on Shark Tank? Or realizing that he’s a billionaire? Do you present him with a concise business opportunity? Do you ask him? How’s your day? How’s the weather? I mean, you’re in an elevator with a billionaire. What do you do? Oh, boy. Yeah, just like, I mean, what is it? What can your marketing agency do for him, but he can’t get from the other 5000 marketing agencies, you got to be ready, you got to think on your feet. So that’s the way I construct email, there’s no time. The same with a cold call, you have three seconds. One 1002 1003 1000, click Buy, talk about myself, I’m dead. I have to get that person talking about themselves because then they love staying on the call.


And I think a lot of people can relate to that. As soon as you open it up to the everyone loves talking about themselves, especially those type a business owners exactly whatever it may be. So I guess what is the one question or the thing that you say on those cold call cold calls that get someone to stay longer than three seconds and just kind of start opening up? Are there certain questions he asked different demographics? Or do you have a go to opening line for cold calls?


It’s a great question. And I tested about 1000 different things. And the one I found was if I call a VP of Marketing, I say who’s in charge your marketing or VP of mobile? Who’s in charge of your mobile? And it was wild, okay, 1/3 of time to say, I say Hey, is this Bill Smith and say, Well, no, Bill’s not at this. Mention he left the company. So the data was bad 30% of time. Number two, I’d asked them if they charge a mobile. And they said, No, actually, I’m in charge of the actual web mobile, not the native app. That’s Sara, so call her so I call my system route ruin multiplies. The first thing I do is I say their full name. And if I pronounced it right, you know, that kind of gets me points, especially the the hard to pronounce last name. Then I just ask them who’s in charge of the thing I’m talking about? And most the time they route me or not me anymore? says No, they aren’t trying to say I am. So I start the call asking them what they’re in charge of, instead of saying the reason for my call, or did I catch you at a bad time? or How are you or everything that reminds them that I’m an interruption I’m selling. I move the spotlight on them. They say I am okay. That’s interesting. And then it’s like, you know, I’m calling from this company and I do this how are you doing that? They talk about their existing solution. And then it is crazy. I agree with them and validate. So I say, oh, you’re using our competitor. They’re great. How’s it working out for you? And I wait. And so I like to agree with them. I listened to my hear them out, they start talking. I’m keeping them talking. And then they turn in a there’s like this polarity shift where they go, Wait, what’s this call with you? And the minute that they turn to take interest in me now, I’m not making a cold call. Now I have a person who’s asking me what I’m doing. And we’re moving the other way. We’re pulling, we’re not pushing. And then I always use the framework. I try to augment I never try to rip out anything that anyone has, it’s always a beachhead, to keep that in place. Good job standing that up. Why don’t you test the SAT alongside multiply the effectiveness augment? The approach was so much in technology, sales is a stack, they have 91 marketing solutions, or, you know, 25 solution in tech stack when you really break it down. I mean, they’ve got Slack and Salesforce and Sales Navigator and zoom info and Gong and, but we’re testing that we’ve got this intent data provider, and we’re doing this thing I mean, it’s it’s nuts, there’s really no need to go, Hey, rip that stuff out. It’s like, well, you’re investing in all that, can we plug this in and make you more effective, I have this expression that I always use, which is buyers buy. That’s one of my great secrets to selling. So if you see somebody buying a lot of sales, tech, and you’re selling sales, tech, they’re probably going to test your tech to don’t suggest they rip all that stuff out. They have SAS contracts, they have binding long term, you know, annual commits. And so it’s very hard for them to get out.


I mean, you’re talking about tech quite a bit. And I can agree there’s I mean, from a sales and even on the marketing side, I mean, 10s of 1000s of different tools, apps that can be used, I guess, what would your go to tech stack look like? I mean, everything from you mentioned sales loft Gong, I mean, from the email automation, voicemail drives cold calling, I mean, is there a sweet bundle of tech stack that you like to recommend?


I do, you know, I’ve sold a lot of services to. And obviously, you need self healing CRM. So you need something or HubSpot or Salesforce, but you also need Sales Navigator, you need LinkedIn, because this is hundreds of millions of people updating their own information. So it’s critical. From there, you have to be automating your emails and your calls. So you need at least a dialer. And you need some kind of email Automator. These are called sales, engagement platforms or SCPs. And on the automation side for calling, it’s called a parallel assisted dialer or a pad, then you really need a data source, you need emails and phone numbers, and usually a few of them, which so things like lead IQ, zoom info, Lucia, sales, Intel syntel, I mean, there’s so many different ones. And then because we’re all remote, so you can record your own calls, and your manager can understand what you’re doing. You need like a gong, or a chorus. There’s things like, you know, chatbots, you can sit on the front of the site with a drift, something like that. And then it just goes and goes, one of the biggest things is account scoring, like content data, stuff like bombora, and six cents and white rabbit, some of these things, because in big verticals, when you have 5000 accounts in your total addressable market, how do you even figure out the top 200, you should do you need tech, like a Chromecast model where it can predictably figure out in your CRM or crunching data signals on where you should start, you know, so you can do a search and Sales Navigator, put these 1000 accounts into this one of these platforms. And it can tell you using big data analytics, predictive analytics, you know, machine learning algorithms, hey, for some reason, these are the first 200 to start on. That’s the next frontier. So in my book, I profile a lot of these stacks of like an essential stack that can just answer it. And then I have the really crazy one where there’s like 40, different texts. 50% of high growth companies are spending 2000 a month or more per app, just on the tech stack. Yeah. And that’s going to go up like the Navy SEAL companies. So these big tech companies that go crazy with this, we’re gonna be spending 5000 a month per app on a tech stack. But that’s going to be kicking off, you know, millions of dollars. Additionally, in payment velocities. I mean, when you can do 200 dials in an hour or two and talk to 20 people, that’s, that’s like five days worth of work. Depending on the Connect rates, if you’re an enterprise, you can do 100 dials in an eight hour day and talk to two people. So


and I mean, the goji emails and all that I’m seeing it hit me more. And I mean, as tech, the tech stack kinda increases the accessibility, you know, is there and more sales organizations are doing this, I guess? At what point are the people receiving these types of emails and everything gonna start putting blinders on? Because it’s, it’s a good old fashion, it starts working, everyone else starts doing it, it gets noticed. And now you got blinders on. You know, you mentioned you’re big on the future of all of this. It’s at what point are blinders gonna be put up? And then what is the next step look like and all this


Yeah, so the blinders have already been put up. I was doing this stuff at scale in 2017. That’s five years ago, I was doing a million emails now. That’s for 100 clients 50 a day perhaps it’s actually not that high volume all personalization across technographic demographic psychographic demographic using very sophisticated systems five years ago, we have reached a point where these companies are going to be acquired by the big marketing clouds, companies like sales labs and outreach are becoming extremely popular it’s becoming, it’s kind of Crossing the Chasm where it’s a best practice. But there’s still a lot of gaps in getting field sellers, classic field sellers are now inside to use automation. But the more and more people that embrace the phone and email automation, the more calls and emails are made, oddly not that many people cold call. So the real gap is if you start picking up a phone at all, you’re gonna have an edge, just do this, put your phone number out there and see how many people call you we really don’t get that many cold calls. I talked to like the number tenant marchetto. And he’s like, he gets no calls. So you know, my biggest advantage has been being a proponent of the phone and going hard on the phone. I’ve worked in industries where literally they come in said, you know, there’s millennials here Gen Z, they hate the phone calls, don’t use the phone, I get on the phone, I set records immediately. doesn’t even matter if I’m sequencing because even the sequencing all the emails and sending you he will just sit there and they kind of go, Oh, I’m just not going to respond. But then when you start getting their voicemail and calling them up, oh, you’re looking at my LinkedIn, you open seven times. That’s where you stick out and you differentiate because you’re humanized. Because it’s that tonality, and you’re coming through. Ultimately, though, we’re gonna have a problem, right? We’re gonna have so much email hitting these executives that they’re going to pull off of social media. And that’s what we see micro communities like paint slack channels, things like clubhouse, there’s gonna be these micro communities, also referrals. I don’t even remember how I met you, Dustin, but I think was through a friend. Maybe you just started following me on LinkedIn? How did you find me? That’s a good question,


I believe is on YouTube on LinkedIn.


So you just found me on a search? Or was I introduced to one of your networks trying to think back? Can we have a couple different ways that we kind of reach out and identify who we would like to bring on but I think it is through mutual connections.


Okay, so that is the future because that can’t be faked by machines and AI, right? Like, if you and I both actually know max Altschuler, where I was introduced to you, by the VP of sales at this high growth company. I’ll remember that connection. What it really comes down to then is, you know, there’s some cool models, like Cosell is a cool idea where like I’m selling it, and you’re another seller selling it, and we kind of share our contact pool. But I think warm referrals and stealing referrals is actually, you know, 300 hours of research for my book tech powered sales. That was the defining because if I get so good that my emails pass the Turing test, and I can hyper personalize, and you read the email, I’m like, wow, you can’t tell the machine wrote it. Eventually, the Federal Trade Commission just says, okay, that email you just sent to Dustin, it needs to say sent by Justin Michaels AI, it needs it like a warning label. So you know, that it came from a machine, so we’re applying the wrong problem. But we need to be able to do is make these first of all, the relevance has to increase? No, you need to be getting more products and services that could actually help you just kind of on Amazon, it’s like the exact running shoe the exact books you like. It’s like improving advertising. So it becomes more personal to you not because it’s like it’s even more about your sports team. Know, it’s even more about something that can help you in your marketing agency. And then it has to become more curated through referrals and through trusted sources. So that you know, like, hey, Dustin, three of your friends are hiring this consultant, or three of your friends have this vendor in the stack, you should check it out. Okay, so if you know that it sells your work pane, and some of your friends you actually trust use it? How much more likely are you to take the meeting right now you have no idea. And the salesperson could just be like lying. You mean you don’t know. One of the reasons Sales Navigator does so well as a product is, you know, everyone’s using it. If they you know, everyone’s on LinkedIn doing sales Really? Yeah, I should look at that. And, you know, zoom in philosophy. It’s like, Okay, I know I do need to get a phone or an email. That makes sense. I should look at this thing. It’s a foregone conclusion. How about Salesforce CRM, everybody’s doing that? I better check it out. With all these new companies as disruptive SAS products and new marketing agency consultant, there’s no way to build the trust or know what’s going on. So that’s I think, like also star ratings like jeetu crowd and capterra. and stuff Todd Capone is working on. Now what if I come to you and say my products at 4.2 star that’s strange shouldn’t have all five star products. vulnerability, transparency, showing what’s potentially wrong with and how it might not be a fit. You know, having some uncertainty when you’re first class and a lack of confidence that can sell is when you when you advise your own family and friends. You’re not like hey, there’s a stock you should buy at 100% go up, you’re like it could be a good investment. It could be people you actually care about you’re never certain with it’s weird, right? sales people miss this all the time.


No, I love all that. I mean, it’s like a psychological aspect is so fascinating and that it’s funny you mentioned the the referral hot leads, that’s something that we’re trying to work on from a paid media and advertising perspective is everyone always says I don’t need digital marketing word of mouth is has been great, or trying to figure out how to use digital marketing to create that word of mouth at scale. He’s a couple different social platforms and whatnot. So definitely, definitely align there. And I mean, as you mentioned, more and more emails are going out. I think all these email clients are trying to Figure out how to beef up their spam filters and whatnot. You mentioned a couple tips on how to not hit those spam filters. But this is something I think a lot of especially b2b businesses struggle with is sending out too many emails or too lengthy and have the deliverability issue. What are some best practices or some tips that you have there on how people can actually reach more inboxes we have the tech to find the contact emails, we have the awesome email sequences, but at the end of the day, if it’s not getting in front of eyes, it’s not doing anything. Right.


The thing to remember is the email cap has come down to 150. So you can’t really send more than 150 emails per day. And you have to warm that up slowly. 25-55-75. People don’t realize this, they get outreach and they go, Wow, they caps 1000, they send 500, boom, deprecation, you have to make sure that your sender score is good. So your Deacon, your spiff and your demark, which are these crazy things, ask you it about it. If you send too many too fast with bad email addresses, you will get deprecated. If you need to do a lot more volume than that you have to have separate aliases. So you know, in your, in your sales engagement platform, you need, you know, J dot j dot Michael at JMC, calm and Justin a jmc.com. And then warm those 250 per day, that’s to get to 300 per day, then you got to ask yourself, if you’re sending 300 emails per day, which is was at 9000 emails per month? I mean, do you really need to be at that scale? Are you really personalized enough? Shouldn’t you be able to hit what you want with 50 emails per day, get your demon verified, pre call the phone numbers, test the IP address, get your email address to 90% accuracy. There’s actually a lot of investment in time that can be done in data before you even send, the more accurate your emails are the better year received as a domain and the sender score. So this is actually just a it’s a battle of technical revenue operations, which I talked about, before you even worry about the message and the sequence in the personas, making sure that your centers score is good, and that your targets are accurate. Right, you measure twice, cut once. So I think it might be the wrong question. I think getting to this mega scale was was the goal. I’ve heard of teams like oh, we still we sent 30,000 emails last week, how many means you get didn’t get in meetings? Okay, I go in with lead IQ. And I spent two hours and get three meetings, and they don’t understand how how is that possible? Well, my email was delivered 98%. I called through the numbers and I reached people’s voicemails, I left voicemails, and it was human. I looked at their LinkedIn and I just manually did this work. So what does it teach us that we’re really just amplifying garbage, you know, garbage in garbage out guy, guy go. You don’t want to start power, emailing our power calling until you’ve tested AV testing your templates and your scripts and done this one at a time. So you know, you want to spot test, your messaging, your sales story, your social proof, your use cases. And once you’ve got it working well on a small batch, you’ve sent 100 emails manually. Look at the responses. You’ve made 100 dials to cell phones, look at the responses, then make the investments in amplifications of that strategy. That’s a lot of what my consulting work focuses on. That’s, that’s the hard thing right there. That’s the rub.


Note that that makes sense. And that, you know, you do a lot of coaching, obviously work with quite a few businesses. And from the sound of it, you know, you’re big on the data and analytics side of things, which I absolutely appreciate. I mean, as you’ve worked with quite a few businesses, I guess, are there any commonalities and and missteps or I guess, opportunities that, you know, most businesses have? Is there a common problem or thing that just one little tweak and all of a sudden it’s off to the races? The biggest issue is that sales, a b2b sales, people are sending email, like marketing, they have very long expository emails that are very stiff and formal.


They’re sending an email looking automated, they send email that makes it look like it’s a machine and they don’t realize that they’re using for phone frameworks, if they’re calling it all that focuses on themselves. So they’re basically have completely ineffective phone programs. The there’s not enough focus on like the email accuracy, they’re using data systems that are 30% off. So they send they go, they send 100 emails, and they’re like, Well, here’s my open rate. And here’s my reply rate. Here’s my conversion rate. It’s like that’s not your open rate. You have 30 bad emails on 100. So you’re doing a seven you’re not sending 100 emails, you’re sending 70 we’re not even playing with a full deck of cards here to do the measurement. Let’s send this on like 98% working email addresses, then let’s kill these spammy links in the spam address and these imagery like, you know, come to our conference, big picture in the thing, right. So they’ve, they’ve messed up the data and messed up the verbiage and they’re failing before they even began or I show up in their center scores. You know, Through the basement, I mean, they’re getting you know, 5% open rate. I’ve even open sequences where it’s zero, nothing sent. When we’re talking about aging, I’m like, why are we talking about messaging? You can’t even deliver an email, right? with technical problems. You know? So? Yeah, I think the biggest thing I’m dealing with is a lot of a technical operations, its sales operations, problems, revenue operation problems, a lot of these little SAS teams have not had the time to invest in teams. So here’s the here’s the irony. But here’s the paradox. You need to hire more experienced people to do your opening. You need to invest more in the tech, you need training on the tech and then training on sales. It’s like, Wow, that’s really expensive, Justin, it’s like, yeah, it’s so much more investment than what you’re comfortable with. And I work with CEOs on this. It’s not about oh, what’s the lowest base, I can get an SDR, then I’ll just plug in this, you know, sequencer and then now that’s, that’s, that’s how you blow it up and go wrong. It’s actually like, it’s just, you know, lighting the business on fire. You need better people. It’s the sharpest tip of the spear, that first impression. People that are subject matter experts that are very skilled in outbound and hunting and the initial conversations, you understand band and medic and discovery and qualification people. You know, this is why the full cycle sellers back because you know, he’s very experienced people that can close the deal. There’s so many lessons from closing that reflect and opening with high powered stakeholders, peaking interest, diagnosing pain, generating insight, peeling the onion and probing with like, next order level of questions. So if you have young folks, it’s all good. You just need a ton of training. And when you get them the whiz bang tool, you need to train them on the tool. And then you need to train them in general on how to sell and not just how to be SDR is how to do play the full sport. And I’m not just plugging myself because I provide some of these services is actually like how I became great at this stuff myself in the field. And I didn’t have a lot of training a lot of time, but I have been through Sandler and Miller, Heiman and Challenger and that stuff’s been transformational. And I really appreciate the companies that made the investment. I love it. And I think


one thing I love is, yeah, it’s expensive. But at the at the end of the day, it’s expensive not to make that investment. I mean, it’s the opportunity cost of not not investing into people, the tech, the training and all that it’s actually more expensive and in lost revenue or missed opportunity, leaving stuff on the table. And so kind of what you’re alluding to is I mean, we’ve had these discussions internally, do you have an SDR that’s opening and then set up the appointment for them the closer to come in? It sounds like it’s more of someone that kind of does it all rather than creating that labor division? Is that that correct? Or


so there’s two themes. One is sub specialization and one is consolidation. Luckily for the CFO, a lot of the tech platforms are 234, or five solutions wrapped into a single solution. Ring DNA is a good example. It does email sequences, it has data it has forecasting, it has guided guided selling, it has you know, listening, there’s there’s really cool platforms like that’s one, revenue grade is one, there’s ones that are just consolidating a ton. You can see new features coming out from sales law, from Zan. From outreach, they’re bundling in, you know, and then you have Gong going in a direction but not just listening to calls but predictive for predicting based what you’re hearing the calls, what’s going to close. So the good idea, the good news is that solutions are going to go from point solutions to these converged stacks. Number two sub specialization means it’s not just str ease, it’s more like Moneyball, you know, this SDR is going to also work on data hygiene, and we’re going to teach them data science, this str is more gonna work on, you know, content strategy, and YouTube and demand Gen and maybe running marchetto. So you’re gonna have people that are even more specialized across the funnel. And you know, these hybrids in different roles, because everyone’s kind of inside now. You have to be thinking of a human being as like a unique genius, like 70% of what they do can be automated. So let’s automate out all the manual stuff like, that’s not high value, and let’s get them in front of more customers, more face to face interaction, move them lower in the funnel. What can we automate? What can we scale? And where can we optimize the true quality of the human AI? The humans ability to be working with customers? That’s what leaders should be asking themselves Predictable Revenue in the str a model is a great place to start, but break it out even further. What What is this person gifted at? If they have aptitude train them, but they’re technically skilled, get them programming lessons, teach them our sequel, or, you know, some advanced skills, data science tableau, right. I just think it’s crazy, like someone who’s at Stanford, and they studied Applied Statistics and they’ve got all this training and scale, we put them in a, you know, a role that’s $3 an hour sitting there clicking a button. It doesn’t make any sense to me. So that’s why I think everyone should be thinking about unlocking the human capabilities by making sure humans are selling more and that’s why the zoo stuff is really risky. So now I’ve got six deals today, that’s a fail. If you’re a new business Hunter, you should be getting on your phone, seven minute bursts, mainly outbound phone calls, maybe some demos and discovering zooms, but you shouldn’t be zoom slammed. If you’re a new business owner, that’s a marketing person. That’s okay. But if you’re in back to back zooms on half hour blocks, I just need a cell phone I’m going to call 50 people, I’m gonna have all sorts of random conversations, I’m gonna call my opportunities, I’m going to call it have all these ad hoc conversations that’s selling. It’s a very dynamic, it’s action oriented verb.


Yeah, I love it. I mean, going back to invest back into the people that the the tech and whatnot. And I love how much you help people grow their their new revenue, I think that’s the biggest struggle for for every business. You know, they come to you with really three, six month plans. And that being said, I mean, what are what are some of your goals? I mean, talk a lot about helping other businesses out, I guess, what are some of your business goals in the near future? I think everyone gets caught up in the super long term. And as we know, from this last year, things can change within a day or two. So what are some things that you’re working on to grow your business?


Yeah, for me, it’s really about focus. The power of a brand is inversely proportional to its scope is what allerease said, the father of Fortune 500 branding, and his book, The 22, immutable laws of marketing and branding is very powerful book. So for me, I’m really focused on this concept of sales board study II, my website will be releasing soon in my Discord server, which is the fact that I’m trying to really focus on technology quotient and teach you because I can teach you all the platforms and how to power use them today, those are going to be acquired and gone in two years, we can’t even get the skills for what will mean five, but technology quotient itself, something you can improve. It’s like technical aptitude, it’s being curious, technically curious, getting your hands dirty, like looking at the online universities seeing what the features are in the buttons power using your platforms, because that’s a that’s a competitive advantage. So I’m focused on like really building a brand. It’s less about Justin Michael, and more about creating sales bullets, which are these empowered sellers, that are leveraging automation for good. And that’s kind of the theme of my book, and the theme of where my consulting is going on the b2b side. Yeah, I’ve been working a lot training teams, and you know, work on retainer, and I do a lot of revenue operations. And I think my sales consulting is unique, and that I’m approaching learning how to learn. I’m training people in kind of igniting the spark for them to get excited about these platforms, then they go on to become directors of sales and VPS of sales. But then they have almost a sales operations slant, to how they run teams, it’s more data driven and technology driven. And so I think that’s a unique niche I have in this industry where there’s, you know, 5000, people like me,


that’s exciting. Can’t wait to see that that website launch, I’ll definitely follow it. And I said, we’re out. We’re always trying to work on the biz dev, and it’s become more aggressive here recently. So there’s been lots uncovered here, that kind of the light bulb went off. And, you know, I said, we’re working on it. Many businesses are trying to work on Biz Dev, as we kind of kind of wrap up, I guess, what is one big piece of advice or takeaway that you’d have for any business, I know, you work a lot with enterprise and fortune 500 and whatnot, before maybe a small business or medium sized business that’s really looking to get more aggressive on their business business development, is what’s one big piece of advice that you’d have for them,


it’s be less technology avoided, like I call this the MacGyver stack, maybe listening, listening, I can’t afford that. I don’t have all that tech, it’s not true. Just to get on this zoom call, you have to have Gmail, yet you have a LinkedIn, you all these social media channels, you have all this digital stuff, embrace it, learn about it, follow people, like it’s the future, we can’t stop the technical revolution, right? So just, you know, it’s like Excel, like who really wants to use Excel more than 5%, I had a situation where I had to do operations in Costa Rica, the Philippines and manage these budgets of 100,000. And I became very proficient Excel, pivot tables, macros all this stuff, because I had to, but it’s really crazy when I had to how good I got the technology. You know, open your mind up to using the technology you have. And you’ll be surprised how much more tech and digital elements you actually have. That’s even free, that you’re not really fully used, utilizing even leveraging like social selling and LinkedIn and building a brand. But doing it in a way that’s it’s powerful and not cheesy. That’s my main message. No, I did that. And that became the differentiator for me and sass, I embrace these platforms and did automations. And the big thing too, is use the phone, really make phone the tempo of your strategy, because people talk a lot about it, but it’s not being done. It’s more effective than ever, because everyone’s like really pushing hard on LinkedIn and pushing hard in the email. So if you’re the one who’s like leaving the voicemail, you will stand out. This is something every business owner can do this 30 million small business owners you can take these tips today without spending a dime


we’ve recently dove into the voicemail drops and whatnot. And I mean, it’s not as personalized but I mean, he immediately just having that phone ring. It’s we’re seeing Yeah, so 6-10 the amount of calls that come back in are amazing. And so it’s already, we’re already speaking volumes to just get on the phones and we’re figuring out how to how to get that that into our our strategy a bit more. But this has been great. I think there’s a lot a lot of insight that a lot of businesses can take away from this, but I really do appreciate your time and look forward to seeing your growth.


Thanks, Dustin. Thanks again.


Thank you.

Where To Find Justin Michael

Reddit: u/salesborg

Twitter: @tonystark2020s

LinkedIn: Justin Michael Consulting

On the previous episode of RGR, Dustin talked to David Navarrete of Moneta De Sine. Navarrete says an effective marketing video begins on paper. Write down your goals for what you want a particular video to do, then talk to a producer about how they can help you meet those goals. A great producer will help you focus and refine a concept.

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