What’s it take to write great ad copy? Ask a zombie: Brains. (And experience.) | Rise Grind Repeat 064


Zombies are a good business model. How? They’re tough. They don’t quit. And most importantly for veteran copywriter Ken Moskowitz, they’re not dead.

How to write good ad copy? Ken had a reputation for taking ad copy that didn’t work and turning it into winning words. So when he started his copywriting company, he named it for his trademark skill: bringing ad copy back to life. And, like their namesake, they spread.

Ad Zombies has worked for 3,000 agencies and 10,000 SMB’s around the globe, providing copy with interesting angles most agencies never think of, and providing it fast. (OK, zombies aren’t fast, but these are. And really, really good.)


Rise Grind Repeat Podcast powered by EIC Agency


Hosted by Dustin Trout
Produced by Andrei Gardiola


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| Rise Grind Repeat 064 |

So what did I do to build the brand? Well, I already had a name, I had a rudimentary logo. And I reached out to one of my production crew from my other business they said, Hey, do you know any like actors that are like into zombies that could dress up as zombies for me? Oh, I know a whole troop of zombies. Great.

Today’s episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat, we talked to Spanky from ads zombies, his company writes copy that can sell anything. Talk about the power of communication and how to use it to sell your product or services. Let’s dive right in.

Ken, thank you so much for joining on. episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat. I’m super excited about this. I kind of stumbled on you and ad zombies by getting served an ad and then just really enjoyed the creative that that was being served. I mean, it’s a and we’ll get into it.

But I’m a huge fan of too many businesses are just selling, selling selling with their ads and not not providing entertainment or value. And so that’s one thing that was super unique and you know, we had the opportunity to connect during Social Media Marketing World but stuff got a little crazy there. So I’m glad that we got a little bit busy. Come on, let’s give ourselves a break. Yep, yeah, and it’s we tried to pack because we were I mean, we’re doing filming for some of the speakers there and then we had a client the week before that we were filming so it’s like we’re there for two weeks straight and yeah, when it came down to crunch time is like hey, maybe we bit off a little more than we can chew trying to get client work done filming done podcasts in but I have never done that before ever in my life.

Yeah, yeah, I see the the sarcasm there. It’s a it’s easy to do. But

yeah, I mean, it’s, I’d love to hear some of your backstory. I mean, I you know, as I was kind of doing some research I saw that started a started in the business at 10 years old would love to

Here’s some some more of that and kind of how that led into where you’re at now, I’d love to just kind of hear some of that history. So I guess to kind of kick it on. So let’s start with where this all started. My career started in my bedroom in Queens, New York, in 1977. And so I was 10 years old and 77. So I’m all by the way, am I allowed to be myself and swear? Or is that is that not enough for yourself? Okay, just making sure because, you know, I don’t want to offend anyone, but I was 10 years old. And I was in New York. And that’s where I was born and raised grew up there. And there was this gas crisis. And fuel was being rationed. There are only days like if you had an odd numbered license plate, you could get fuel on one day to an even number. You could have curfew on another day, and it was crazy. And so I was watching this happen as a 10 year old, and every day I would see these lines on union Turnpike shout out to my queens people union Turnpike, 100 66th street right there.

where I lived, and I would see these lines forming back from the gas station on the corner of 100 and 64th. And I’m like, What is going on? And my mom said, oh, there’s a gas shortage. Okay, cool. Well, I didn’t realize it at the time. But that was my first entrepreneurial endeavor. I saw the opportunity there to serve the people align. So I went up and down the line with my bike, and I offered to get coffee, doughnuts and newspapers for the people standing in line because back then you had two things you had radios to listen to, or you had newspapers to read. That was it. There was no social media. Nobody had a TV in their cars. There were no cell phones. And so I mean, I lived in the dark ages. I am an old fucker. Okay, I’m 53. So I started working the lines. The first day I did that I didn’t have any of the equipment to do it. Right. So the next morning I went to buddy’s Schwinn bike shop and I keep dropping names of places because I want my New Yorkers just to know where this stuff is reference points, but I went to buddy’s Schwinn bikes shop on cassina Boulevard and

He hooked me up with every basket imaginable. My bike looks so stupid. I had fun baskets, top baskets back. But I work those lines every single day, I would get up at dark and start working those gas lines. And I never charged for the surface. I was working just for tips. And I made thousands and thousands of dollars each week. And again, as a kid, I didn’t realize that that was something entrepreneurial. I was just like, I’m gonna make some money. And, you know, it was cool. And I didn’t, I knew that charging them was stupid because people were so grateful. The first day I did it, that they were rewarding me with like, I would go get them a Dunkin Donuts, coffee and a doughnut and a newspaper. And they would give me like a five or $10 tip. And like I’m going wow, this is cool. I can do this every day. So I work those gas lines morning and afternoons. That was my first entrepreneur.

I’ll never my first business and the IRS still doesn’t know about it. 43 years I’ve been gaming them. Well, hopefully they don’t hear this here this episode and come back at you with some back taxes or something. Yeah, so so but I grew up in Queens and I was listening to and I don’t know if any of you are former radio listeners back before podcasts and iTunes came about but I used to love listening to the boss DJs of the 70s Harry Harrison, Ron Lundy cousin brucey these were guys I grew up listening to and and I loved the radio because when the song was done, these little annoying to everyone else things came on these commercials. And I used to sit there and listen to them like a geek. And I was like, Man, that is so cool. They sell stuff by telling people about stuff. And so I was fascinated with commercials and I really was in love with jingles and so jingles and comedy

Myrtles really became a thing that was it was my nerd thing like some people are into into skateboards and some people are into collecting Matchbox cars. No, I was into making commercials. So about a few years after that gas crisis, I turned 13. Good Jewish kid from New York, you get Bar Mitzvah, but my uncle hi drops some extra dough in my wallet at the at the bar mitzvah. And I bought all the equipment I could to stock my room like a professional recording studio. And that’s how my career really started. I was making commercials from the time I was 12. I really went into high gear after my bar mitzvah at 13 and never looked back. So I’ve been doing this for like, 40 something years, and I feel like I feel really old when I say that. But that’s how long I’ve been doing it. It’s crazy. That’s awesome. So at that young age, I mean, were you doing the voiceover coming up with a jingle or kind of how are you helping once you got all the equipment? What were the different things? Well, jingles for sure. I wrote some of the

funniest stuff that I could never do on radio, because it was so vulgar because, you know, that’s what a kid does. But I really discovered that I had a lot of voices. In fact, it was at that age that I found that I had the ability to do character voices. And I still to this day, like, most people don’t know this, but you have probably heard me on a radio or TV commercial at some point in your lifetime, because I’ve done thousands of them. But you never heard me. In my own voice. You heard me as a character. That’s cool. I mean, how did you get, you know, how did you find that in brand practice? Did you just stumble and be like, wow, you’re really good and go, hey, how far can I go with this? And I remember, I can tell you, I don’t remember what year it was. But I remember what happened. I was watching. It was a Friday night I was at my grandmother’s house and I was watching the Muppet Show, I think and I think it was a Friday night, but I was watching the Muppet Show. And Kermit the Frog came on and was doing his thing and I walked into the kitchen to get something and I walked in and I said, Hi Whoa, Kermit.

From here, and my grandmother looked at me and she says, That’s really good. And so I started to realize that I had a very flexible voice. And so I started practicing all sorts of voices and seeing what I could do. And then when Star Wars came out, you know, I obviously 70 sevens when Star Wars came out. And I started, I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was practicing those voices, I would walk into a room to the dark side, let’s do not go. And so I really became, I discovered that I had this flexible voice. And so as I got older and got into radio, right, which is where my passion started, I started using my voice in in ads, and then I wound up getting an agent and then I wound up doing big commercials all over the place. So it’s just you know, you follow your passion, you follow what you love, and the money comes. It’s like a side effect of doing the shit you love. Yep, no, I love that because I mean, I genuinely think that the money is a byproduct, do what you love and figure out how to turn that love into bringing

value or a solution to a problem and, and the money will come. I mean, if you do it for the money, you’ll eventually be unhappy.

Yeah, I mean, before we get into where AD AD zombies came into play and how you kind of grew that and started it. I mean, Spanky, where did Where did that come from? We’d love to hear the backstory of the history. I mean, I there’s two versions of the story. There’s the story of my friends like to tell which is not true. And it has to do with something I do in private, so I’m not going to tell that story.

And and my friends do like to say that to people just to get the look on them, look from them. But the story deeds back to when I was a kid, I was always a pudgy kid. And I looked like Spanky from Little Rascals and that predates me It predates napping, the percent of your audience, they’re probably gonna think Google search that shit but

my uncle put a propeller beanie on my head, took a picture and captioned it and the nickname stuck. I was like the for when that happened, and I hated it, hated it, hated it. hated it, but

served me well in the creative industry because people will never remember Ken moscowitz. They don’t remember my my real name, but they never forget Spanky. And so it’s really served me as a badge of a really memorable name. And that’s why all my social stuff starts with, even though I keep my last name in it. I all at Spanky moscowitz. There’s a reason for it. People never forget, Spanky. And I couldn’t get just Spanky because it goes back to what my friends always used as Oh, yeah, he was always in his bedroom, you know? No, that’s not what it is. But I couldn’t get that handle Spanky everywhere because some people looked at that as like a derogatory, like things. All right, thank you. masco is easy enough. And even though people struggle to spell it, I’m like, my brand is my brand. And that’s one of my brands. Yeah. And I mean, that’s the thing that I can appreciate quite a bit is just the acknowledging the psychological part whenever it comes to marketing, I mean, the jingle side jingles, you remember it? So it helps with branding. But you just mentioned you know, the Spanky helps

branding. So I mean,

to me, I think this is where a lot of there’s a lot of opportunity where I guess companies kind of miss and I mean to you, how powerful is the branding side? And I guess what are the the, the not so much benefits but I guess Where’s their opportunity and where brands are maybe missing it you know it’s so huge branding for any business even a small like mom and pop leaves a place is so powerful because you become the narrative the go to, for your customers for any customers in that space. And I’ll give you a perfect example of this. How powerful branding is all right, I’m gonna do something totally weird right now.

Taking off my shoe.

Okay, tell me who this brand is. Nike. Okay. When was the last time you saw an ad for Nike that had a price point in it. Go.

I don’t think ever since I’ve been alive.

That would be never you

Nike doesn’t sell a price point they sell an aspiration they sell a dream, a vision of what your life will be like, when you wear their athletic footwear. Don’t call them sneakers. My former brother in law, who was a retired head of HR for Nike would kill me if I call them sneakers, even though he’s retired from there. So it’s so they are their, their dream that they sell. Is that look at the athletes that were our footwear. No, you’re never gonna be Michael Jordan. No, you’re never going to be this athlete or that athlete. But it’s the dream of what you could be with their athletic footwear on your feet. Okay. That’s how brands sell. You create enough touchpoints that reinforce the message of what you do and how your business your service your product, makes that consumers life better. And you don’t have to sell them, they will just go click Checkout, and they’re done. Because you

They know you, they like you, they trust you, and they know what your business or brand stands for. And so any business, it doesn’t matter if you’re Nike that has hundreds of millions of dollars to spend, or a mom and pop business that spending $1,000 a month on Facebook ads, you can build a brand and successfully build it to the point where people just instantly recall you, it doesn’t matter what your business is. Yeah, no, and I love that. And I mean, I mean, huge analytics nerd. Love the data side. And typically what you hear is, well, if I’m not asking someone to buy and they’re not gonna buy and so the economics aren’t there to run branding or figuring out branding is too expensive. And I mean, what would you say to those smaller companies or I mean, there’s medium sized large companies that don’t even have the branding on point but what would you say to them it with with that type of pushback where you know, we’re not gonna see the results. You don’t need a huge budget to build a brand. You know, I look at what the way my company ad zombies started.

Did you know I started it. And I’ll go back to kind of the origin of at a moment. But I want to talk about how the brand started. I didn’t have the money to go to the conference center, the convention center and buy a booth at the Infusionsoft icon conference. I didn’t have the money to do that the cost of playing in that field was too rich for my blood at that point for this business. And I didn’t want to borrow money for my other company or pull my personal money into it. And I’m like, so I have to do this grassroots shit. And so what did I do to build the brand? Well, I already had a name, I had a rudimentary logo. And I reached out to one of my production crew from my other business, they said, Hey, do you know any, like actors that are like into zombies that could dress up as zombies for me? Oh, I know, a whole troupe of zombies. Great. And that’s all this crew does. And I paid these guys as zombie actors in full costume to go out on the streets of Phoenix around the Infusionsoft

Con conference with these red tote bags that had gigantic ad zombies logo on it and handed out bags we never even went inside. And it pissed them off like the cleat mask and Scott were pissed because their clients spent thousands and like 10s of thousands of dollars to sponsor Infusionsoft icon conference. And I did this whole thing for five grand. And if you’ve read my book, one of the pages in the book, it shows you the return on that $5,000 investment I’m if memory serves, I think it was like $16,000 in sales came from us guerilla marketing, the Infusionsoft icon conference, but I built the brand for five grand. What happened after that was that I kept building the brand. If I could build a brand for $5,000 with really no budget, that’s really small. Like that’s I didn’t even have sales that that measured that

but but I invested 500

thousand dollars in something that would be memorable that people would talk about for years to come. I wound up going to the cocktail hour that night and apologizing profusely, that clay mask. And to Scott Martin No, because I knew that what I did was disruptive. But it was the only way for me to launch the business. Sometimes you’ve got to get dirty to get what you want done. And it didn’t hurt anyone. All it did was build awareness. So but from that, I took every opportunity and every dollar of those sales that came in and put it back into the marketing. And what I did is I created ads for Facebook and Instagram, that do one thing to entertain our audience. Because if we can entertain you, if we can entertain and make you laugh, we’re going to have an engaged audience. And so our job is to entertain, to engage, to educate about what we do and then ask and it goes to Gary V’s Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. So it’s a

For me, the jab is entertain, then engage, then educate. Those are my three jabs. And then my right hook comes with a really soft ass. I absolutely love that. Because that’s I mean, that’s our entire philosophy is again, I just feel that too many brands and work in different agencies and stuff like that all the creative was around this sale or how cheap it is or buy now and it’s like, well, we haven’t even introduced who we are as a brand. And why are we I, I, I kind of tried to equate it to like going out to a bar, if you’re gonna try and pick up on a chick or a guy, it’s like, I’m gonna go in and ask to go home that night. You’re gonna, this is who I am. And you’re gonna start that conversation. I mean, sure, your conversion rate might be 1%. I mean, even a blind squirrel finds a nuts I mean, eventually you’ll find that but I mean, you that conversion rate could be so much stronger. If you had more of a conversation said who you are, what values you have, and then go in for the Ask based off of how they’re feeling about the conversation. And it’s it’s, I love that philosophy and humor.

Many marketers really try to close the sale at the handshake, which is the wrong approach. You can’t close the sale at the first handshake. Remember back when handshakes were popular, that would be 2020 BC.

And that’s what I call VC before. COVID. That’s it.

When when handshake when you meet someone the first time and you reach across the table, Hey, good to meet you, and you go to shake hands. You don’t say Good to meet you. You want to buy from me at a cocktail party, you know. And when you’re at a party or an event, and you’re meeting people, you’re talking, you’re getting to understand what their businesses who they are what they do, right there’s, there’s conversation, there’s engagement. Look at that word again, engagement, right? You tell jokes at cocktail parties, entertainment, right? There’s engagement, educate, then you talk about what you do and how your business works. And that’s the education it’s it’s really a cocktail hour philosophy applied to your messaging on social media on the internet on YouTube on named

platform. Yep, the same thing. I don’t you don’t walk up to them and go here. Here’s an idea. Give me your money. Yep. No, I absolutely agree. And I mean, that’s I I compared to having a conversation all the time. And essentially, in today’s digital world, you’re using the data to fill out that conversation. It’s what am I saying? You’re doing that a be testing different creatives, whether it’s entertaining or within entertainment? What are the different things that were saying? And then the ones that they’re engaging with that? That’s what gives you a sense of what sticks to them? And then it’s like, how can you keep that conversation going? And I yeah, I just think there’s so much much value there that I think is just gets untapped. And I think the consumer likes it as well. I mean, you can’t hear I mean, I love all the comments that you guys have on your ads. It’s always This is great. Love everything you guys are doing. I mean, when you go to look at the comments on most other people’s ads, that’s typically negative. And so it’s, I mean, the proof is in the pudding on what you guys are doing. And I think a critical thing here and let’s talk about comments on ads. Because I think

That’s really critical. One of the biggest failures of most businesses is that when people comment on their ads, whether they’re positive or negative, they use a canned kind of prefabricated response. For every positive comment. It’s the same response for every negative comment. It’s the same response. We choose to engage with our clients exactly where their commentary is. And so there’s no canned response for someone who loves our creative, you know, the other day, and I forgot the woman’s name, but this woman made a comment about our hero ad that’s, that’s the ad with the woman in it, where you might see her holding a blurred dildo in a blunt. Right. So for reference, you say, Have you seen the ad? I haven’t, but I definitely keep my eye. We’re ending this, this interview right now. No.

So she commented on the ad, and she said, I don’t need this service. But man, I was engaged and laughed all the way through this thing. And of course,

When I saw her profile, she actually does need our service. She’s a small business owner, she just doesn’t know how to connect the dots yet, right? So but the reality is, is that our engagement with her was remarkable because what we did is we saw and whoever on my team responded to her comment, saw that her profile picture had this bright yellow dress on it. And so their comment was something about how we’re glad we brighten her day the same way her awesome dress brightened hours, right? That’s an engagement with that customer future customer who may be not in the moment needs us but man when she’s ready to advertise and thinks back to copywriters, and the go, Who’s that? Who’s can help me with my ad? She’s gonna go, Oh, I remember those guys. They loved my yellow dress. Yep. And I mean, that just goes down to personalization. It shows that you guys just took an extra second to care. I mean, go in on who they are, and speak to that and that. There’s so much of that, that that, again, just those canned responses. I’ll

Come back. I mean, staying on the topic of comments, what are your thoughts on, you know, removing those nasty comments or negative comments? I think this is something that that happens quite a bit. I have my thoughts on it, but I’d love to hear hear yours. So I have I have two schools of thought on comments that are negative and and they’re going to contradict one another. But I think if you give me a moment, a moment to explain, you’ll understand why. I believe that comments that are negative are that you deal with professionally, improperly are great, because then people see how you engage with your audience. I’ve had clients who are not happy, they didn’t like what they got creative as a variable. Somebody doesn’t like our flavor of creative that they that’s cool. But we engage rather than coming to us and telling our customer service team they put us on blast on a comment on one of our ads. Okay, fine, but we don’t go dirty. We don’t go below the line. We stay above the line and what we do is we engage with them we fix the problem.

We offer to make it right. And we want happy customers, right? So that’s a positive negative engagement. Does that make sense? A positive, negative? Absolutely. But then you’ve got the assholes who start dropping heart foul language who are just rude to people. Those we don’t engage with. We’ll just I will take those down, especially when people start to get really vile and toxic and I just don’t think that’s good for the world. We have enough toxic shit on Facebook and on social right now, do we really need more of that so so I I choose to have those blocked. But we don’t choose negative engagements about our service about our business about a client. We have a client His name is Mike Fowler, and I use him. God Mike gets so much play from us on podcasts and social media because he is like our poster child for an unhappy client. And I love this because and I share the story because people

Anyone can go to our Facebook page, find Mike Fowler and read his comment because it was so awesome. He ordered an ad from us and didn’t like the copy. He said, hey, my copies working. I’d like to see if we can do something better.

You know, whatever here it is make us an ad. Yeah. We made him an ad and he hated it. He hated it so much, that he sent it back and said, this is garbage. I will never use this. Please rewrite it. Whatever. Our copywriter said Hey, no problem happy to rewrite it for you

rewrote the ad and then when it was delivered, said would you do us a favor? And I’m so glad Mike did us the favor. Would you split test the ad copy against yours? I know you don’t like it, or the original ad guy. Anyway, he didn’t like the second version of the ad that we sent him either. So he hated the first one didn’t like the second one. And then he had his which was converting for him. He tested all three

against one another. And both of our ads outperformed his but the one that he hated outperformed his either four to one or five to one, you have to go look it up on Facebook, you’ll get his comment. But you see, it’s how you engage with your customers, how you engage in comments how you engage with your audience, that’s going to determine how the world views your business. So don’t use canned responses. Don’t be an asshole. Have fun with your customers have fun with them. Because at the end of the day, my brand has a very sarcastic, witty kind of wise as voice and we can stay sarcastic and witty and wise as for their clients as long as we’re respectful. Absolutely. And the same holds true for your comments if you’re going to comment on something be respectful, raise the the level of the conversation don’t bring it down into the basement. Yeah, I to me, I just see too many branches, hide the comments and don’t respond, but to me, I think that’s the

huge opportunity to gain more customers because it’s all about how you approach that, that response. I mean, I think everyone can, can agree that you’re never going to make everyone happy. But it’s a, you know, shedding that light onto, hey, you know, not we’re not for everyone, and we’re okay with that. And then how we how we approach that response, I think builds more trust and go, okay. I like how they handled that. These are the people I want to work with. And it I just had too many meetings. It’s like, yeah, let’s just remove everything. But I’m like, I think there’s so much more power in being creative and how to respond to those rather than just removing it and not and I love your, your take on that. And I mean, something that you mentioned, the whole data driven decisions and stuff like that. I’m a huge fan of

past jobs. It’s not butted heads. But there was always a lot of conversation around Well, we should run this because I really like it. It’s like, well, this is performing better. And we have the ability to look at the data. I mean, how do you approach that? I mean, when because I could see

I mean, especially in the creative creative is the variable. It’s very subjective on, you know, what’s gonna work and what’s not. I mean, how do you approach those types of conversations without, you know, pushing back too much and just saying, Let’s, you know, let’s test. Well, when my team struggles to push back, that’s when I get on the conversation in the chat and push back because I can, I can, you know, they can elevate it to the CEO and I can have those conversations because I’ve lived through this. I’ve been in this industry for so long. Here’s the thing let’s talk about before we get into the data, let’s talk about falling in love. People fall in love with their creative or their idea of what they think their creative should be. But at the end of the day, you can serve a humorous ad to someone who just had a fight with their spouse, and they are so pissed off that that humor isn’t gonna resonate. They’re gonna hate you. They don’t want to deal with see your ads and they hide them. That same person could have had an amazing morning just found out that their aunt Becky left them $5 million in her will

That that is going to be received very differently. The variable of creative is not you the Creator, it’s the consumer that’s receiving your message. So don’t fall in love with the shit you write the ads you make. Let your consumers fall in love with them. And if they don’t like them Don’t take it personally don’t be butthurt just write something fucking different. Because not every message resonates that’s why we have like 180 something messages in our ad zombies wheel of cheese that deliver different messages to different people because not everybody likes the stuff that that that I think is funny or engaging. And then something like I remember Brandon, my business partner, when we released I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the the clown ad. And the clown ad is our top of funnel is one of our top of funnel ads. And it’s a clown in a bloody face and sneaking up on a child in a farm field or and it’s a really weird

Ad but it catches your attention. And he’s like, this is terrible. Why would I don’t even know? Why would that ad has had millions and millions of views and has thousands of comments, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shares worldwide, thousands of reactions, that ad is gold. He hated it and thought it was the dumbest thing ever. That has been a goldmine for us at the top of the funnel. So So don’t fall in love with your creative. So now let’s go to the data side. at Social Media Marketing World I’m having dinner with Daniel Harmon from Harmon brothers, he and I are talking and we’re talking shop because that’s you did you know, yeah, we’re just talking about the industry. And we started talking about the split testing of of ads. And Daniel taught me something so valuable. I was so grateful for the conversation.

And and that is split testing of thumbnail images is the most efficient and least expensive thing to split.

test to quickly get a win. So I’m like Alright, we’re gonna put this shit to use we’re gonna try this ourselves. And we wound up split testing seven different thumbnails for our hero ad that’s the ad I was talking about chick that’s got the build. Oh, and anyway, if you want to see a girl holding a blurred out below and I just go to our website, you can see it anyway. So, but seven different thumbnails, and those seven different thumbnails prove to us which thumbnail image was the one that grabbed the attention of the consumer the fastest. And that was the she’s eating a chicken leg from KFC and has a bucket of KFC right in front of her. Like, don’t I have no idea why that thumbnail work? But it does and it consistently delivered the cheapest results for us. So from there, what do we do next we test the headlines and we split test multiple headlines. And guess what we found the headline that worked and the delivered again the cheapest results, the least expensive results. The most bang for your buck.

Then we started playing with the ad copy. That was the last thing we did. And we dialed in the ad copy. And we found the most effective ad copy for that ad for that moment. And so you go through those data points to see what converts the best, what works the best, what resonates with the audience the best, but also don’t fall in love with it, because it could change tomorrow. And if it does, then you start reengineering. So watch your data, see how it’s performing. And and let me just say something else about the data because this is something that really drives me nuts about every marketer in the world.

Would you stop worrying about your fucking frequency on Facebook?

you’re you’re you’re killing yourself over frequencies of three or five. And I’m gonna minimize this window while we’re talking because I want to share something with you that is so we have ads and I’m going to go alive.

Yours, we have lifetime ads and I’m going to give you some frequencies that are going to freak you out. We have some ads that have 57 frequency. And, and I’ve got one that we spent 40 $100 in this campaign that generated 17,000 that’s a 4.14 row ads. So I’m talking really specific numbers, but for you marketers out there, get your heads out of your ass. It takes 14 touchpoints for a consumer to understand your message to see your message to know that you are the company they want to engage with.

So when you’re down to three to five, you are literally only 33% of the way there to have the the amount of touch points for someone even make that decision. And no I love that you brought that topic up because it’s, I agree there there. We get to the three to four range like oh, we’re serving them too much. We’re wasting dollars on our impressions. We need to shut that off. And it’s like no, now they’re just now starting remember

Uh oh, I keep seeing this this page show up, I keep kind of seeing it not. And that’s when you’re starting to get that brand penetration and people are literally cutting themselves off way too early because because of that, and

now I love hearing that. It’s just like, you know, think about it like billboards used to be right before we had digital advertising before we had anything other than the car radio. billboards were a super effective way to advertise today billboards are still an effective way to advertise. But you have to remember when you’re driving, you can’t click the Billboard. Right You can’t take action, you have to store it away. You have to file it in your memory. with with with any platform, Facebook, Instagram Tiktok you have the same ability to create your digital billboard, right? Whether it’s a video or a static ad, it doesn’t matter. I’m using the word billboard is kind of the showcase for what your business your service does. You have the ability to get in front of people. However, for people to remember you you have to get in front

Have them multiple times. There’s no such thing as one and done today, because we literally see 10s of thousands of messages per day. You don’t even realize how many messages you see per day, but you’re seeing them. And so you have to be able to stand out to grab people’s attention. And by the time they see your ad 1520 times, they’re starting to become familiar with you. And, you know, we had a client once in chat, and I don’t remember the guy’s name. But this happened about a year ago, who was new to us as a customer.

And he saw one of our top of funnel ads, and then spent a few weeks I’m guessing, in the ad cycle before he converted. But one of the things that he wrote when he was chatting with our online support was, oh, I’ve seen you guys around for years and I’ve been thinking about using you. I’m like, No, you haven’t.

right but but but the reality is his perception is he knows us because he sees

All of our messages he likes us because other people like us social proof, and he trusts us because we have hundreds and hundreds of five star reviews and deep, deep comments from clients who support and love what we do. So you can do that for any business and it doesn’t matter whether you’re a funeral home, a flower shop, a pizza place an agency, you can create that customer and brand experience no matter the size and you don’t need hundreds of millions of dollars like Nike to do so. Yeah, and I agree only because we have the ability to take those people that watch half a video or a full video and then set up retargeting that keeps messaging where it’s just I think people try and go too wide rather than deep and and if especially if you have you know a smaller budget you need to go more deep. Take the people that are watching and keep showing them rather than trying to reach 100,000 people reach 1000 people but serve them 15 2030 times and then that’s when the that that outreach starts coming in those opportunities start coming in and out

It makes makes people think that you’re everywhere it has that everywhere effect. You are everywhere because wherever they go, you seem to follow them. Yeah. And they don’t know why but suddenly, like you’re in their periphery at all times. And that is the most powerful way to become the go to brand for your product, your service your business. Absolutely. And just before we get into kind of ad zombies and how it was created, I’m interested I mean, I see you guys quite a bit on on Facebook and Instagram. Do you guys play outside of that arena using Google ads or YouTube I mean, now you got programmatic that you have reach on TVs and and I mean, even you mentioned billboards, there’s a you know, a company called blip where you can do digital billboards, yeah, no, i. So, you know, we’re able to, especially if you drive them back to a website now those pixels are firing and you can essentially be everywhere. I mean, do you guys do stuff outside of Facebook and social 100%

So let’s talk about outside of Facebook. Facebook is a platform. The problem is, is if that platform changes, and listen, we’ve all been victimized by platform changes, okay? Don’t Don’t be in love with this. The platform changes your business can be screwed. So we definitely diversify. We have, I mean, our YouTube video ads generate thousands of click throughs to our website every month, which allows us to retarget them, right, which, which allows us to get in front of people on different platforms we run. I did a video a few months ago, and it was me sharing how we get 150,000 organic views a day, using just organic content. I would take pieces of conversations like this, cut it up into micro content, schedule it, put it on different platforms, and then our reach goes really big. And I shared not only how I do it, but the tool that we created we created this spreadsheet for for tracking content and then

Right, so you saw it? Well, what what started to happen? And we noticed that that was getting a lot of traction. So I thought, huh, let’s put some marketing dollars behind that. And guess what that piece of content is now a highly converting ad for us. We didn’t change a damn thing about it. I didn’t create a buy now. Go here, learn more. No, we’re literally giving people Hey, if you want this piece of content, click here. You can go to our website, download it, I’ll give you the content tracker. I don’t care. Use it. It’s a great tool. We created it for me because I needed it. And and I give it to them. But what happens is, is that they go to the website, they see what we do. And they go, Wow, these guys are good at what they do. I should just use them. And so you build awareness. You’re like, there’s so many different platforms, though. I’m on tik tok. We’re on Google. We’re on YouTube. If there’s a platform out there, we’re on it. There’s a new platform right now that I’m avoiding. Because I haven’t seen

Seen it gain traction, other than far right? opinions and views, okay? I don’t have a problem with faraway opinion. I don’t care where you are politically, you could be completely left completely right. But I want to see a little more diversity in a platform before I’m going to start advertising on that platform said I want to see diversity because diversity shows me long term health. If I see something that’s too, too leans to one way or another, I’m a little sketchy about the platform because the platform’s health is based on one audience demographic.

Now, that’s tough. And I mean, I love your philosophy. It’s like, just, I, when I saw that content, I love it. It’s good. I mean, give the knowledge away for free because it’s like the the people that are going to use it and not appreciate the services that you provide, or they think they can do a better they’re probably not gonna be the best client anyways, but it helps build that brand equity in that word of mouth because it’s like, if someone else needs they’re like, Oh, yeah, these guys do a great job. I don’t use it, but I mean,

It creates that that word of mouth scenario. And then to your point that people are like, Oh yeah, I can do this. You give them the keys and they’re like, oh, wow, this car is really hard to start, you know, I don’t even want to be here. So then it brings the value of what you guys actually do. Quite a bit. I know I love that approach. And I know we’ve been going down a couple different tactical rabbit holes, but I mean, I would love to hear the evolution of ad zombies. How did that come about? How to get created? And yeah, the the the history there. Okay, so, and there wasn’t a sigh It was more like, wow, this. If you if you could have told me that on March 5 2017. What Mark six would have started, I would have laughed at you just like if you told me that 2020 was gonna shave off the way it did. Yeah, you know, I would have laughed at you. But here’s what happened. March 6 2017. I’m in a Facebook group. And this dude wrote an ad for a plastic surgeon and the ad wasn’t

Converting. And he went into this Facebook group and said, Hey, this ads not working for my client. It sucks. I don’t know what to do. I’m trying to save the client. I don’t want to lose them. Any suggestions? Any ideas? And what do people naturally do when somebody posts something? they shed on them? Right? They immediately go to the negative. So everybody piled on and yeah, this ad sucks. I wouldn’t. Yeah, no wonder it’s not working. But no, but nobody offered him anything of value. And so I’m just like, Alright, I know what Gary Vee would do. So I channeled my inner Gary Vee and I said, Hey, here’s, here’s what I think is wrong with the ad. And if I was writing the ad, this is the way I would write it. And in the comment section, I rewrote the entire ad. So that it was emotional, and it had the right touch for the for the for the woman that they were trying to reach. And that single act led to 10 or 15 people saying, Wow, where did you learn to write like that?

And I was really ashamed to tell them I learned how to write like that listening to the radio when I was 12 years old, but

but that’s where it started for me. And so I just said, hey, I’ve been doing this my whole life. This has been my career. I’ve been an ad guy since day one. And so really, that’s how it started. I offered to help anyone who needed help writing copy, I just said, Hey, if you ever need me, reached out, hit me up, email me, DM me, whatever.

I closed it down for the day went to my life with my wife and kids. And over that weekend. I had like 100 requests by email dm for help. And I’m like, holy crap. people struggle with writing ads with writing copy, and I truly discounted it. I diminished it as like, that can’t be because it’s something that for me is so effortless. It’s like taking a breath. And but I realized that it’s not that way for everyone. Just like there are people who are really gifted with mechanics and automotive

We’ll repair like they could see something and go, Oh, I know what’s wrong. I can’t do that. And and yet for them, it’s effortless. So there’s something for everyone that’s really easy their natural talent, their gift. And for me, it’s storytelling and writing. And so that’s how the business started. This hundred people said, Wow, could you help me with this? I couldn’t handle 100 people, I didn’t know how I was going to do it. So I said, Look, I will help 10 of you. And here’s my offer, and I put up an offer. And those 10 people got this smoking deal. They were called founding members of adds up. And those founding members got the smoking deal that like nobody else. We still have founding members in our plans. And they hold on to it because it’s like, you can’t get that that level of planning anymore. It doesn’t exist. But those 10 founders get it and, and it was super cool that that people needed this help and and and how the name came about.

I’m really grateful that my brother in law Shawn turned me on to the walking dead. I was a few episodes deep when I accidentally saw it one night. And on any any no AMC, AMC, and

and they were at the CDC and they were the bullet going through the brain on an X ray and I’m like, What the hell is this crap, turn it off. And then a few days later, my brother in law Sean, I’m telling you way more backstory than I’ve ever shared. My brother in law. Sean was like, dude, you got to watch the show. It’s awesome. I’m like zombies really. And I just thought it was the dumbest thing ever, but I’m always willing to give something a shot. If someone says it’s good. And so I watched the first few episodes of The Walking Dead and I was hooked. So I had become a fan of The Walking Dead and was an avid like Sunday night. It was an appointment for me to watch the show when it came out. But I have kids, and my older ones wouldn’t be afraid, but my younger ones would be terrified. So Id viardot

That first Sunday night after this Facebook group thing started, I’m texting back and forth with my buddy who then became our later became our head copywriter. And we’re texting about what the name of this thing which was just this nebulous, like, I have no idea what to do with this. Is it gonna even be a business? Could it be a business? And so we started messaging back and forth about what this thing could be what it would be called. And we were both watching The Walking Dead.

And we started in with zombie copy, copies, zombies, writing zombies, ad zombie, oh, ad zombies, right, it’s suddenly hit. And then we started coming up with what will our positioning be? What will our brand statement BM or like, add zombies bring ads back to life. We had a version one. And so the following week, we put up version one and the business was born. And from that point,

it went from zero to

seven figures in less than 700 days. Wow, remarkable. That’s that I mean that that’s huge. That’s I tap that is great.

I still shake my head over that.

No, that’s awesome and I mean it’s a I mean for what you guys are doing I think it’s a very under appreciated talent I mean it’s everyone’s trying to figure out how to reach the audience or I mean you know, you got video photography that’s huge but I mean even that it’s it’s, it’s getting a little bit easier to do but how to communicate in a way that makes someone feel something to then get them to make whatever desired action it is that that you want them to do. And I think you know, just it’s amazing whenever you can see the before and after of what copywriting does and I mean

I think people try and always figure out their brand voice and you guys have done a great job at that. I mean, how, how, I guess how could a brand figure out how to take what they do who they are come up with that brand voice

Then translates into copy

it let me off. Let me offer this. If people who are following your audience are struggling with that, reach out to me. Let me help you find your brand voice. I’ve never offered this I just probably screwed myself because I’m going to get a gazillion emails but let me help you with that because this is what I’ve been doing my entire career. And the reality is is that you have to be okay with not always selling. You have to be okay with creating

a presence, a voice, a position in the market, you have to be okay with entertaining people with not just giving them an ad to buy a product a service an offering. Because when you can free yourself or separate yourself from the having to sell to the What do we want to communicate

That’s when you’re really able to do the work. You know, it was not until I was talking, I was at Tony Robbins business mastery. And I’m having a face to face with Tony. Like, here’s a big gigantic like. And it wasn’t until I was there that I found even further clarity in our messaging. And it wasn’t because Tony gave it to me. I was sitting there thinking about this because one of the questions you get asked during business mastery. And by the way for any business owner, once real live events can can come back, if you’ve not been to Tony Robbins business mastery, whether you like him as a motivational speaker or not. If you’ve not gone to business mastery, invest the $10,000 to go to business mastery, it is the best money the best return on investment. No, I do not have an affiliate link for it. I’m just telling you from personal experience, we had 30% growth coming right out of that event because of the changes we made based on what the Epiphany is that I had there. And so one of the questions he asked

And I still have it in my Bible from from business mastery, as I call it a Bible. It’s a big thick book that you get. One of the questions that asked that’s asked is what business are you in? And that’s when you really say, Well, here’s what I do. Right? I’m a copywriter, I’m in a copywriting service.

The next question is, what business are you really in? And you go through an exercise to define this? What business are you really in? And what business should you be in as the last question, and that’s talking about the future proofing of your business? And how do you create more value constant and never ending improvement so that your clients have an ongoing experience? Right, but that’s a question we can shelf for a while. What business are you in? I’m a copywriter, but the business I’m really in is I write words that sell anything. That’s the business I’m in. And so defining your message finding your brand voice is critical, because the moment you can define that people don’t have to burn brain cells to figure out what the fuck you do and how you can help

Help them. Yeah, and that’s where the value comes in. Now, I love it, and probably one of the first emails you’re gonna get is gonna be from me, that’s something we’ve been trying to figure out just, I mean, it’s, you know, we help with content creation and the ads and all that, but it’s communicating all that we do and a few amount of words and articulating it correctly, and that brand voice positioning and so I’ll definitely be reaching out and see what what that looks like, cost and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, it’s a it’s such a huge, huge point, because I mean, it’s even whenever we engage with a new client, it’s like, you know, when it comes to the video production and all that, what do you want this to look and feel and, and many businesses don’t know that. And so then that’s what we’re tasked, can you help us with and say, well, we’re trying to figure out for ourselves, I don’t know for the right people to to help you figure it out. But I think that’s such a huge need. And really, I mean, especially as there’s more conversations around humanizing brands and stuff like that, it’s it’s getting more and more prevalent, that it’s needed for every business.

People don’t buy from businesses they buy from people. And so even though like I have two jobs in my company, right, I’m the visionary. And I’m the face of the brand. That’s what I do for ad zombies, right? I’m the guy who created it, I thought of it. And now I drive forward the vision of the company. But ultimately, I’m the face of the brand. But when people buy, they’re not sending me the money. They’re not going into my paypal account, right? They’re buying from the brand from ads, zombies, but the real, really, it’s the relationship they have or that they perceive they have with me as the founder of the company who became the face of the brand. I may not be the most attractive face, but people recognize me. Lots of business owners get stuck in the well. They’re buying business they’re buying from the business.

The reality is they’re not they’re buying from you. They’re buying from the trust the reputation that you’ve built. You have to figure out how

to amplify the voice of your business, which is really your voice, across all of the marketing efforts that you put out there. Yeah, no, it’s it’s totally agree. And and, I mean with everything I mean, it’s amazing what you’ve been doing. And, you know, getting up to this point, I’m, I’m anxious to hear what what’s kind of in your guys’s six month horizon? What are the things that you guys are trying to accomplish? I mean, you know, a couple curveballs have been thrown in 2020. So I’m sure you’re here. 2020 goals and visions have been, you know, changed a little bit, but what’s kind of your guys’s horizon?

So for me, first and foremost, I want to help as many of our clients pivot their messaging their businesses, so I’ve literally been every day creating video messages for them saying, hey, please reach out to me use me as a tool in your tool belt. Allow me to share with you my knowledge. If you’re struggling to pivot your business right now or your messaging or

I want to be a tool for my clients because these are the people that take care of feeding my team and making sure that everybody on my team has a roof over their head. So I appreciate our clients greatly because the money they spend with us supports the business, right? So hyper focusing on my clients right now is super critical, especially the next six months. We don’t know how long this is going to go on. Look. The truth is, you sciences science and the opinion you have about COVID whether it’s real fake masks, no masks, it’s irrelevant. It’s impacting the world, like it or not, okay, if the economy is where it is and is going to go where it’s going to go whether you believe it or don’t believe it, and it doesn’t matter. People will live people will die. It doesn’t matter. The virus is agnostic. How you run your business isn’t. So stay out of politics is number one, stay out of the engagement and have conversations

Around the hate number two, and super serving my clients. And that’s what every business owner should be doing right now is super serving your clients reach out to them. Even the clients that pay you the least amount of money, do not discount them. Because when those clients figure out the secret sauce to growth in their business, and they are a client of yours, their relationship with you is going to grow and evolve. And they will scale up and guess what they will scale up with you because of the relationship you’ve formed with them. So the big question you asked, what are we doing the next six months really focusing on our clients we’re focusing on we always focus our energy on growth that occurs very naturally and organically for us, just based on the way we market and advertise the business and build the brand awareness. On top of that, we’re spending a ton of time with human one to one engagement. I think that is so critical. Because right now we all feel very disconnected from one another

You know, I am a I am a social person me, like there’s some people who are super like they can just be away from people and they don’t need people to survive. That is not me. I am a natural like I hug people. I enjoy human contact immensely. I crave it. And so this is really isolating for me. And I want to talk about that for a second. I’m going to go in a completely different path. I know for a lot of entrepreneurs right now. you’re faking loneliness. you’re faking happiness online, but you’re really sitting there very lonely. Entrepreneur life can be very lonely to begin with. And on top of that, we’re dealing with this shitstorm of coronavirus, which isolates you even further. So if you’re in that place, if you’re in that dark hole, because I’ve been there, I have fucking been there. Reach out to someone. Don’t let that fester. Don’t let that bring you down further. Because I’ve seen too many people go

I can’t deal with this. I’m tapping out. And there’s no reason to tap out. There’s a community of people around you, that will support you love you and make sure that you’re taking care of so if you feel that way if that’s starting to hit you do drop me a fucking email DM me, I, I will be a lifeline for you. Because at the end of the day, we’re all in this together globally. Yep. No, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, outside of the economics and politics of everything that’s going on. I mean, I’m just a huge believer in in the mental side of things. I mean, grew up playing sports, and I think it’s so powerful and I, I’m more interested in the long term effects that everything’s going on now is how that’s gonna impact I mean, people’s mindset, outlook on life and all that. I mean, it’s suicide rates are going up and stuff like that. And that’s, that, to me, is the the more powerful thing of what’s going on and and, yeah, I mean, that’s why we’ve kind of cranked up the production of stuff and we have a couple different shows and all that going on, and it’s just kind of, you know, kind of try and do our part two

provide something that makes people feel connected in a way and I think, yeah, it’s it’s it’s definitely needed right now. I mean more than ever. Yeah. I mean, a few weeks ago, I was doing daily lives on Facebook and YouTube and Twitter. I’m using Periscope, I was doing daily lives every single day. And something happened to George Floyd killing. And I felt it was wrong for me to go on and do lives right then and there. And that moment, I made a personal decision that there was a lot of anger and animosity and I felt like if I were just get on and just do the things that I normally do without acknowledging what was going on, it was wrong. And I also didn’t want to get on and acknowledge what was going on because then people going Oh, suddenly you’re a political activist. Right? So I so I stayed a little Switzerland, and and I didn’t want to get online. And then something happened and this is not normal for me, and this is why I went to where I just did in the last part of


Over the course of several weeks, I started to consume more news. And I started to get depressed. And I started to get really lonely and feel isolated and feel hopeless. And I couldn’t do my lives. I couldn’t get on because if I had gotten on every morning and did a live, it would really be disingenuous for me because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t present. I wasn’t myself. And so I had to force myself to stop consuming the news to stop watching it. I don’t want to wake up every morning and hear about deaths destruction. The President masks the fighting the right, it was really weighing on me as an individual. And I reached out to a friend of mine, Kenneth woods,

who’s an African American friend, and I said that specifically because when all of these conversations were going on about Black Lives Matter, I asked him a question that nobody had ever asked him. I’m like, cuz I was in a funk. I’m like, Kenneth

Tell me something. I said, What’s it like being a black man in America? Blake’s Tell me be as a friend I want to know. And he shared some stuff with me that really was very heavy. And and I’m not going to go into detail about it was a private conversation. But what it did is it made me realize that there’s so much heavier stuff going on in the world that we need to focus on. And so I stopped watching the news. And his message, while it was heavy, really touched me. And it kind of brought me out of my funk because I realized that what I have is a platform. And that platform allows me to do good in the world and to lift people up. And that’s why I made the offer to people who may be in that funk, because man, it is the darkest loneliest place to be. And so I didn’t want to bring the energy of our conversation down, but like it was just where it naturally went. Oh, yeah. And so I hope that that didn’t bum you out.

No, it’s it’s it’s really good. And I think, I mean, it’s just spread the positive

activity as much as you can, I mean is what it comes down to. Because it’s not just positivity just to be fake positive, but I think a lot of people are experiencing that just darkness right now. I mean, I’ve never seen before. I mean granted not the oldest person and haven’t watched news forever but I mean it’s crazy that they just have a running death toll on on the news and I mean, it’s just just seeing that number what it does psychological I mean, seeing that day in and day out and it’s it’s and this is where I mean what what you’re doing with coffee and making people feel a certain way I think more than ever people need that emotional drive I mean, to be communicated to and that’s that’s the key. Any copy can manipulate the consumers feelings about news, business product service. So it’s the most powerful thing there is the message that you convey can really emotionally manipulate a human to feel a certain way. And you know, when I was on stage at at Social Media Marketing

world. I was teaching people about storytelling and how to tell a story. And I told a story. And I don’t know if you saw my session or were in my session or watched it afterwards. But I told a story of this four year old kid in Long Island, and this kid was playing ball in the backyard with his sister. And when he was playing ball with his sister, he threw the ball or the Frisbee, and he looked over and noticed upon the pool deck that there was a pool float or a toy. And so he did what every four year old did and climbed up the pool deck, slipped on the inner tube and jumped into the pool. And he slipped right through the tube and went to the bottom of the pool. And his sister turned around and noticed he was gone and her instinct was instead of running into the house, some reason she was two and a half years old, she ran up the stairs of the pool deck, and looked in the pool and saw her brother at the bottom of the pool. She jumped in grabbed him by the hand

and pulled him out of the pool and saved him. Wow. And I shared this story with the audience and it was visceral because it was my story. It was what happened to me when I was a kid. But that story I then was able to use later on in a swim school ad for a swim school and I shared what it’s like from the kids perspective, to fall in a pool. Wow. And it was a really painful emotional story. But at the end of the day, you can with the words you choose Create the feelings that your audience is having. Its words are very powerful. You got to use them wisely, because the wrong words can cut forever. the right words can build an empire. Yep, absolutely. And, I mean, I couldn’t agree more. And as we kind of wrap things up, I mean, that being said, it’s a lot of business are trying to figure out what their voice how to how to communicate. I mean, there’s a lot that you’re speaking about the business

This is find extremely valuable. So anyone that’s maybe trying to find their voice or how to communicate with their audience, I mean, what’s the one or two pieces of advice that you can give them on on? What’s the mindset? How do they think through that? How did they come up with that so that they can communicate their value in who they are a bit better to their audience. I would say this, don’t always go with your

opinion, your thoughts on something.

Try different things. Have fun, right? Get creative. Again, like I said earlier, don’t fall in love with your idea. Let your audience dictate what that is. So think about different ways that you can message what you do and it doesn’t always have to be about what you do directly or the product or service you offer in your ads. And let me explain that. If you were to see any of our ads, you never see someone sitting in front of a computer typing ad copy. That would be the most boring fucking ad ever. No one would watch it you would get no

conversion, they wouldn’t even they would scroll right by it. Right? If you’re in a business that isn’t very sexy, whatever that business is, think about other ways to get people’s attention. Because just because your business isn’t sexy, my business is not sexy. It’s people sitting in front of computer screens, writing ads, writing emails, writing landing pages, that ain’t sexy. It’s just, they’re typing away. Uh huh. But think about the visuals that can grab attention to get people to go, Oh, what is this? Right? Stop, stop thinking. So inwardly, stop thinking at in your business and start thinking out of your business. Because if you’re focusing on what you do, you’re never going to get out of the creative way of of your own thoughts. If you go outside of that, right mind altering experience right now you have a glass of wine, light a candle, do something to mix it up when you start thinking about how to create your messaging, but don’t be afraid.

To test stuff and try stuff and play with things don’t be afraid to try new things because that’s where you find the magic. I absolutely love that and couldn’t agree more I mean it’s a brawl about always be testing abt that’s the three letters that we we live by here at UIC. But uh, no, I mean I appreciate the time it’s uh, it kills me to add to kind of cut off I feel like we can be talking for hours I love I love just your philosophy on marketing when it comes to brand positioning. I mean, it’s love seeing the ads that you’re doing and I hope that there’s another opportunity to connect I mean in person maybe do another one of these but uh, yeah, I just love what you’re doing and yeah, so I do appreciate the time and and, you know, anyone from the audience wants to reach out to you or needs help with coffee or, you know, kind of how can they find you? We’re fine. Add zombies. What’s the best way to reach out to you guys? Sure. So on social media, ads zombies is everywhere. It’s the same handle right and on our website,

Add zombies calm pretty easy. You want to connect with me personally. Just follow me on any of the channels pick the channel at Spanky, moscowitz, sp, a and KY. And then MOSKOW tz. For those of you who can’t spell, just google Spanky zombie copy, you’ll find it pretty easy. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time and we’ll connect soon. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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