Blade Runner was wrong — using bots for marketing can’t replace people. So are you ready? | Rise Grind Repeat 055


Chris Weaver, a bot marketer, returns to RGR to assure you we have nothing to fear from replicants. Chris says that using bots for marketing can only get you so far.

The SVP of MWI, Chris speaks from 15 years of experience when he says, “No computer is ever gonna be able to make an emotional story that connects with someone.” Does that make you relax?

It shouldn’t because that means if somebody’s going to build your brand through storytelling, it’ll have to be you. And with customers getting really good at shopping online, thanks to COVID-19, telling your story well is more important than ever.

Chris Weaver

Rise Grind Repeat Podcast
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Produced by Andrei Gardiola
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using bots for marketing

| Rise Grind Repeat 055 |


Welcome back to season three of Rise Grind Repeat. To kick off episode one we talked to repeat guest Chris Weaver from MWI. We talk how to navigate marketing through COVID-19, which includes e commerce, building your brand through storytelling, and even Ott, lets dive right in. 


Chris, thanks for joining another episode of rise grind repeat. It’s great to have you back. I mean, you were one of our first guests over in our little little tiny closet.


That’s right before we got online, I was noticing the new digs. It’s awesome. You guys are looking awesome, man.


So appreciate it. So I mean, with everything going on, I mean, we kind of talked about COVID and just how things are changing. So I mean, you work at another agency, and so we’d love to just kind of kind of get a feel Or get a sense of what you’re kind of seeing and and would love just to talk about how maybe marketing is changing how people are changing their overall strategy. And so, I guess just at a bird’s eye view, I mean, what are some of the changes that you’re seeing either with the clients or just in the industry all together?


Right. So at MWI, we have a multitude of different clients, which is nice because, you know, when things like this happen, you know, we see it really affect hard some of our clients, but some of them actually have kind of seen the opposite effect, right. So before, we’re talking about e commerce, with our E comm clients, we’ve seen the lowest cpms we’ve seen in over a year. And in the last two months, we’re seeing double three times the return on adspend. Because people are at home, they’re, you know, scrolling through their feeds and they’re purchasing they got that they got that extra cheese from Uncle Sam and right so I mean, like the a lot of e commerce We’ve actually seen positive turns. You know, we’ve got some international clients that have actually seen, you know, who are three to four months ahead of us. And they’ve kind of come out on the other end, you know, a different world but, you know, they’re seeing upticks in their conversions. So then we’ve seen the clients that have have been directly affected it, you know, some of our local business clients, and some of our travel related clients, and there’s no doubt like, they’ve pulled back on adspend. And I would too, if you’re in that position, but what we’ve kind of talked to them about is other ways to reinvest in marketing, other ways to make sure that when we do come out on the other side, they’re ahead of the game, they’re ready to go. One of the biggest things we’ve pushed is storytelling and being you know, kind of really focusing on you know, telling your brand story through an emotional level. And that’s not investing in advertising. That’s not investing in ADS that’s investing in telling your story and how it helps people. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you just eat helping people is going to be more important to your, to your customer base than a trick on an ad spin. You know, and that’s something that’s going to come around on the back end, and, you know, double, you know, what it was worth and before So, yeah,


no, it’s it’s an interesting debate. I mean, we’ve been doing a live thing recently and kind of go back and forth on that where it’s like, well, cpms are lower. Maybe now’s the time to instead of having a ton of sales content is do the brand building and push the push the paid media, But to your point, it’s like, but if no one’s really buying maybe invest more time into building the story, whether that’s an How are you guys doing? Is it through video or is it a multitude of different ways? Definitely through video,


but what you’re saying there, I think that totally makes sense. If you think of a marketing funnel, And normally you want to put money into all different areas of the funnel, right? I think right now, what we’re seeing is that bottom funnel, still converting piece, you still want to put more money into it. And that money that you’re putting in that middle area where it was might be more intent. Instead of that maybe putting it more higher funnel where you’re not expecting a sale right away. It’s expanding a sale in a month, you’re really building your name in front of new people. And when we’re talking about medium, it’s video, it’s it’s the type of content that people engage with. It’s something that gets to people right at the point and like I said before, if you’re going to be if you’re going to get to someone’s heart You have to get through emotionally and that’s


exactly Yes. I mean, it’s people can see the the facial expressions, they can hear the tone, I mean, a picture’s worth 1000 words, but I mean a video is worth a million words and there’s there’s just and plus getting I mean Going away from the blog, it’s just like how many how many times? Have you read a text and it just comes off a different way than it was probably intended. And so there’s all that where a video you don’t have that, because you can hear the tone. You can hear the the voice and all that stuff. And so I mean, what are some of the video things that you guys are doing? Is it more like testimonials is the product videos or talking about the brand?


Yeah, it’s all all different. So I think what we’re doing right now, let’s let’s focus start on eecom. Right, because we talked about that earlier. What we’re seeing is on that bottom funnel, targeting its product, it’s review. It’s all the stuff that we’ve always learned about right, that just jumps out to you. It’s seeing that shoe it’s seeing that we’ve got a client of ours that does purses and baby bags. It’s seeing that in not only a lifestyle but also that social reinforcement of the reviews and then you know, being able to almost feel it be able to see it. So I would say bottom funnel, it’s the product 100%, the upper funnel stuff, I think what we’re trying to do is much more lifestyle. It’s, well, I’ll give an example. We’ve got some clients based out in Hawaii travel related client, which is not the ideal client, right? But at the same time, what you’re doing what people are having is they’re still have that feed, and they still have that desire to go eventually. So we’re still selling that dream. But it’s more like trying to focus it on. You know, we’ll be here when you come back. Yeah, right. We know what it’s, we’re not going anywhere. Right? Well, we’ll get through this together. And when you come back on the other side, you know, we’re ready for you. So messaging like that. That’s much more emotional and lifestyle focused is kind of what we’re doing for the future. And then if that bottom funnel its products, its reviews, and that stuff’s working, you know?


Oh yeah, I mean it’s I love how you’re doing it because I mean essentially there’s a buying cycle or buying journey and it’s like more people want to see kind of what it looks like on people more of that lifestyle whenever they’re just first being introduced to it. But once you can identify that someone is engaged with that product or whatever it may be some producing that content that gets them to Alright, I think this will look awesome on me and get to that purchasing. Also love what you guys are doing with the stuff in Hawaii because it’s now more than ever people are wanting to go on like vacation. They’re tired of being stuck at home. So if you can have a little bit of extra spending money to spend on distribution, showing people how awesome it is it’s going to increase that overall wanting to go there. Especially now when it’s cheaper to reach people and then whenever the all this passes, I mean using the retargeting bump those audiences where you can look back six months, 12 months, whatever it is, but by Staying Top of Mind once that that time to travel comes back, you’re gonna have a flood of people that are wanting to go. Right,


right. Yeah, I think in the past, when you think of any type of ad unit, you want to talk about that conversion. What’s that action step? What’s that? What’s that thing that you want your user to do? For that high funnel, we just want them to watch the video. And the way we’re cutting up that audience is, you know, watch the entire video and watch 75% watch. 25% right. So then, you know, and then somebody who just saw one cent and went off and swiped away, because if they’ve watched at least 25% to 50% of the video, that’s a great audience. If they’re 100% maybe we do maybe they want to, maybe they want to risk it, you know, right now, I mean, they want that 14 day quarantine. Like, but I mean, like 25 50% Yes, that is our person. That’s what we’re building that remarketing audience off In the future, so


no, I love it. So I mean, it’s it’s Are you guys showing what the vacation would look like? What what the locale looks like, I mean, yeah,


so right now it’s more of like that dream scenario that montage that drone footage, you know, that kind of lifestyle piece of it. And that’s kind of like because we’re selling the dream we’re selling, you know, you know, if we’re not going anywhere, you know, this is still gonna be here for you. And then for somebody who’s much more direct, you know, saw it’s much more dollars and cents and, you know, what kind of offers? Yeah, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re getting out so. But I mean, at the same time, like, we’re definitely aware of the recession that is coming. So we think to ourselves, every dollar has to be counted. Like there can’t be anything wasted. If we are selling that high funnel to the future. You know, we’re showing exactly those numbers that This amount of people watch this video. And this is how many people we have to retarget a sale to in the future. Because we can’t waste anything you know, and then it’s going to be harder for every agency. Which just means that you just have to be smarter. You know what I mean? Like, you can’t waste anything.


That’s, I mean, that’s as bad as all this is, this is what I’ve kind of loved about it is like, things have been just so good for so long that people just got comfy and didn’t want to innovate or do anything. I mean, there. We spent over a year on different things, just pitching stuff, and just how to change their business model to get more, more digital. And then all of a sudden, this thing happens. And then it’s just like, you just see tons of innovation the different way people are getting more online. I mean, there’s a dance class here locally that been Tom, hey, you should do something like that resume, whatever it may be, but give lessons virtually, you can reach so many more people outside of Tempe. And then once this hit it was like, hey, how do we do that? I mean, just there’s so many other stories. I mean, just big comes He’s doing it. But that’s the one thing I can appreciate about all this is it forces people to get creative and think outside the box, which then brings more value to consumers, which is always good


right now, I couldn’t agree more. I think the other thing that we’ve been focusing on when it comes I’m gonna come back to ecommerce, again, is other channels, right? We’re seeing this spike in streaming TV, in YouTube in video, like how can as a digital agency that is running this piece of it that’s working really well? How can we take that message and roll it up to where other people’s eyeballs are on streaming TV? How we’re seeing much more purchases through marketplaces like Amazon? How can we use Amazon ads, which is a completely open wild wild west for somebody who has a PPC background like you can kill it with Amazon ads? How can we take your market and take what’s your return on Amazon and double Triple that. That’s the other direction kind of we’re focusing is, is not only the type of creative, but also new channels that you know, as a digital agency might be a little bit scary, but is, like you said is the innovation that’s where you have to go. You can’t rest on your laurels on Facebook and Instagram forever. Yeah,


you just have to jump into it. Look at the data figure out you can optimize and find that return is are there any particular channels that you’re seeing do better than others? We’re testing like YouTube shopping and seeing some success there. Yeah, to your point, some Amazon.


Yeah, we’re seeing a lot of Facebook and Instagram, as I just, you know, take a shot at them. We’re seeing a lot of success on


Instagram. It’s not me forever.


Yeah, we’re seeing Amazon ads and marketplaces is is doing really nice. We’re seeing a lot of good stuff there. And then I would say the one that we haven’t touched yet, but that I’m like itching to get to his next door. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. app.


Yeah, my wife maybe get it. And yeah,


so they do have an advertising platform on it. They have an enterprise level and they have a self serve tool. To me if you have a local based client and you’re running deals or you have an enterprise client that you want to focus on not just zips, but actual, like neighborhoods, and they have household income on those neighborhoods. It’s in it’s an audience that’s very aware of what’s going on their clients, what’s going on in their neighborhood and want to see what’s going on. That’s one that I think is going to be a new opportunities, especially for local or home services companies. That’s a good one. That’s one to keep interesting. So


what I mean what does the overall model look like? Is it more like CPC or what type of ad units can you do video?


Yeah, so there is a video they’ve got a general feed, just like Instagram or you know, Facebook or Tick Tock or anything like that you can put in video units, you can put in just general display units. You can roll in with like specific deals that you have running for specific networks or specific neighborhoods. And then they’ve got other areas of the app such as you know, they’re free and you know, cheap section, which is kind of like a, like an offer up within the app. And that actually integrates with eBay. Really, right. Yeah. So if you have a client that has marketplace on eBay, I think I don’t think they can do it yet. But eventually that will be an interesting connection where you can hyper hyper target




that no that’s Yeah, that’s legit. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, you could list your product or service or whatever it is, I don’t know about service. But basically, you can list something on eBay and then serve an ad and then they can purchase using eBay. So you don’t necessarily need an E Comm.


Right? So we’ve got a client of ours that is kind of in the like the security industry area. So it lends itself to this specifically, right. But like you could do a service in the feed where you’re more telling a story about it, or you can focus specifically on deals into that.


marketplace area next door.


That is cool. What are CP ns localized? Or have you guys have said, Hi, are they


they’re like LinkedIn. Hi. Oh, wow.


Yeah. Yeah. So that’s kind of why we haven’t fully jumped in. But I think it’s, it’s interesting, because of just how localized it is that I


mean, yeah, I mean, a brick and mortar, I mean, hitting every little neighborhood next to you. I mean, that would be huge, especially if you’re brand new. I mean, I said it’s, my wife gets on there all the time. And it’s always like what’s going on in the neighborhoods and all that type of stuff. So it’s people that are wanting to know what’s going on around their house, anything new. I mean, as always, All


day, that Dance Company of yours would be huge. That would be huge.


Yeah. Yeah. Because I’ve seen the ads. I’ve seen them recently, but I haven’t looked into the actual ad platform or anything. Yeah.


So they get so it’s really built for brands right now. It’s not agency friendly.


It’s create like a new account for each no


fun, but I mean, like, of what I heard, by the time 2021 comes around, that’ll be different.


I’m sure that they’re gonna. Yeah, I’m sure they’re gonna open it up. I mean, they probably make it that way. So they can do more testing, figure out all the bugs and then they’ll really be able to monetize monetize, once that that opens up.


Right. Right. Right, right. Yeah, I think that’s because we’re talking about that earlier about, like new channels, new opportunities. Like I really like that. I think Amazon ads, especially if you have a PPC or or programmatic, like buying background is like, it’s crazy. Like the algorithms don’t make sense like Like when being like when we first started and being just socked in, you’re like, Why is this not work? That’s what it is. But like you can, you can also see the opposite. And you can see something just go crazy for like nothing, you know, for five cents, you know. So that’s interesting. Amazon ads is a big one.


Something that I’ve been seeing recently on Hulu. I don’t know if it’s been outside of that, but they’ve been pushing more product where you’ll have a commercial and whenever the commercials about or might be an article of clothing, they have a little thing that slides in that says learn more. And then it literally takes you to like a landing page on the screen.


Google has a self serve tool now. I’ve seen that


Yeah, I haven’t used it but


yeah, we weren’t. We were I was on the list and we got really didn’t make it. I don’t know we weren’t big enough. No, like we like we signed up for the list and like work through the self serve tool. Just because like you like not all of our clients have those kind of minimum just to get in It kind of happened like in March, and then they kind of just shut it down. So I don’t know if they were bringing on everybody and they shut it down or. But I think that like a Hulu, video self serve media tool. That’ll be huge too. That’ll be something that could, in theory rival YouTube.


Oh, yeah, I think so too. I mean, I saw an article the other day where there’s this company that’s trying to basically even in TV shows and stuff like that where you can open up their app and anything that it’s showing, you can literally click on it and then it takes you to a website where you can purchase it, trying to bring more direct response to TV, which I think that’s where everyone’s trying to go. I mean, it makes sense it’s to the downfall of TV is it’s great for branding, but seeing the ROI or the direct attribution there’s there’s always tough


I think it’ll happen man because that’s the thing is people like you and me who are more like doing the like the media buying and media planning aspect of it. We’re going to be keep creating more and more video but it’s that video dollars that money He’s going to be going to social, it’s going to be going to YouTube, it’s not going to be going to connect to TV. And until those connected TV tools are easier for, you know, agencies to use, so we don’t have to go through, you know, 20 3040 $50,000 minimums, you know, so,


yeah. are you guys doing anything like what the trade desk or anything else doing connected TV?


No, we’re talking to a different programmatic vendor to use their self serve tool. Central, who they’ve got a great tool, they’re up they’re highly rated with the enforcer. And they and it’s really cool how from a media planning and from like, creating the video and like hosting it through connected TV, they’ve got some really good connections already. It’s just making that makes sense for our clients and for you Cuz we’re like you guys were more of a performance based agency where, you know, we can do that high funnel stuff, but we do the high funnel stuff, if it performs


Yeah, and that funnel is only good if it later converts as long as you want to do it and if you can, right and and by properly I mean, that’s where Yeah,


that’s where it’s gonna go man, like the branding stuff is gonna, it’s gonna be I think that that will take a big hit, you know, so you need to be able to show that you can


know, someone that maybe check out is a company called chisel. Have you ever heard of them? They, so they actually tie into the trade decks desks API, and it’s basically a subscription. So you pay $100 a month, but there’s no minimums or nothing. And they have I mean, pretty much everything that the trade desk has


no assets.


Yeah, so I mean, you could do and what’s interesting, I’ve talked to a couple different vendors and like, they don’t they say that you don’t have the ability to retarget connected TV video views were chisel cans. So it’s like, and they have a digital radio as well. So we’re working on stuff for us like to push Ott and just Performance Base where we could literally prospect with it, what we what we want to do, because I mean cpms are still 40 $45, which compared to traditional is super cheap. But we want to prospect using banner ads where the clicks are cheaper. You can retarget people visit the site and then serve them TV ads. And so basically, it’s once they get to the site, then we’re going to hit them on TV, radio, they have native ad functionality as well. So they’re connected to outbrain and trouble a couple other


well. That’s totally Dude, that’s awesome. I want to jump on that. I think what makes me think of is that like, so you and I both ran through bigger agencies. And what we noticed, especially I noticed is how siloed it was, how like, the creative people were here. The media people were here, the digital people were here and like we we there. was some but like, for the most part, everybody stayed and ran their own area. And that was like that was so inefficient. Like it was terrible, right? Yeah. So but if you can take what you’re talking about and roll it into like a performance return on adspend driven agency and people who really think that way, but also open up that branding side of it, it’ll make such a huge difference, you know,


100%. And that’s where it’s like, I mean, I still trying to figure it out. But I’d love to get towards performance based. I mean, there. We’ve talked about so many times, there’s so many different nuances that could cause you to lose revenue and all that stuff where it’s just like, maybe they’re, they can’t produce anymore. So kind of caps it out. But I think getting to a performance base, because then then it’s just like, it gets everyone thinking in that way. It’s like, Well, is there a different way that we can maybe approach it where we can do it more efficiently, I think creates more of an overall conversation, which that’s, I mean, that’s the whole reason why I started this I just saw that there was a lack of that cohesiveness Across the creative getting made the the media is getting bought the analytics and I think yeah, I think with everything going on, I think we’re gonna get to where that’s needed. I think a lot of these. There’s a lot of MCs that say that aren’t siloed. But they still are, I think will kind of be a thing of the past because I think I think what’s going to cause that is more people are going to shift from traditional to digital because you can track it and then there’s more scrutiny on where is every dollar going, what’s the return on everything’s Exactly. And I think that there, I mean, just with big businesses, there’s been I don’t wanna say old people, but there’s been older people at the like the CMO or the executive level that may have just been afraid of digital or just


so I think there’s more you’ve got, you’ve got your people, right. And what happens is, if you, if that’s the world you’ve always lived in, and everybody knows that, then you’re kind of insulated to different ways of thinking and it’s also certain industries. It’s more Like, I mean, you know, I was doing some work with, like dmos and destination marketing organizations, right, where it’s like you work with the government doing, you know, the government body that handles the city. And there’s huge budgets, but there’s also a lot of bureaucracy. It’s a lot of old way of thinking. And, you know, a lot of people don’t necessarily put digital to that. They maybe put a piece of it, but it’s not as large of a piece as it should be. For something like that is way different than say, ecommerce. Yeah, I said that like four times. Apparently, that’s what I’m really pushing today. But like, you know, where people are thinking about that, because they’re looking at those numbers every day. Mm hmm.


And I just think that with everything going on, I mean, balance sheets have taken a big hit. I think there’s many more questions on Well, what are we getting for what we’re doing exactly. It’s gonna bring uncomfortable conversations in executive boardrooms. And then from that, it’s Give me like, Whoa, why are we still spending money on traditional TV when can retarget them we can’t get attribution on how many sales are happening. There’s, I mean, I think it’s just, there’s gonna be a huge shift over to digital. And I mean, I’ve been saying it for two years, I’m telling my dad, like, I don’t know, when it’s gonna happen, but we just need a big, like, just gut punch to the economy and eventually, like, that’s what’s gonna cause people to put more scrutiny on every dollar. It’s getting spent on the marketing side. And that’s


the only way that those dollars will be spent. If they’re not if they’re emotional stories that connect with people. That’s the one thing that because that’s the other part that’s kind of scary for us in the digital agency world. Is that especially on the media side, is that okay, Ai, right, a AI is gonna take our jobs now, I can’t press the button, the robot can do it better. i’m john Henry. It’s never gonna work, right? Like that was always the scary part. But the thing is, like, no computers ever going to be able to make a emotional story better than a human. You know, or Or something that connects with someone. So if I see if I’m thinking future and where to put money and time and effort, it’s like you said digital performance. And it’s emotional stories through video.


Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s the only way. Yeah. And even then the emotional store is going to be like one store to reach many. It’s going to be emotional stories. It’s more on a one to one basis. Yeah. Because I mean, if you to your point, there’s more robots and all that doing the media buying that creates efficiencies to where you can spend a bit more money on the the production side of things. So you have now you have a bit more budget to actually make three or four more videos rather than all right, how do we make this one vanilla video that’s gonna reach everyone? Yeah, I think there’s been a creative is kind of not so much gone downhill, but I think there’s been more focused on the media buying but now that there’s more technology and all that that’s making efficiencies in the media buying I think there’s gonna be a shift over to the production side. And I think I mean, I’m always wants a good story and I think if you can figure out how to craft a great story about your brand and their values and and make it to where it’s reaching your, your prospective audience, I think that’s where there’s just gonna be a ton of success seen.


Yeah, no, we’re on the same page.


Now, when it comes to the international clients, I mean, they’re obviously a couple months ahead of us with this whole Coronavirus thing. Is there anything that you’re seeing in terms of shifting and strategies? Or is there anything that America can learn from?


No, that’s a good thing. So I’m gonna pitch. I’m gonna throw a little bit of love towards the end wi comm blog. I got to interview our managing partner in the Hong Kong office, Jason won, and I talked to him about the exact same thing was like, you know, okay, so, you know, this is like looking into the future in like three or four months like what’s it like, like, what do we got ourselves into? And what he said is it’s it’s an you’ve read it for It’s the new normal, right? It’s it’s this idea that people are Are you moving online? It’s already kind of has happened in Asia. If you look at China, or if you’ve ever been to China, everything’s run through QR codes and through WeChat, which is essentially, you know, Venmo, PayPal Facebook, tick tock all rolled into one giant app. So yeah, exactly. But like that’s, that’s kind of they’re used to moving that direction. So if you’re thinking about industries, anything healthcare moving to digital is on the fast track and in Asia was cardi kind of already on that side.


From what he’s seen on the business part of it.


It was rough for two months or so, where the whole company had to take pay cuts because they lost some big clients, you know, big travel related clients. But what he’s saying is, you know, sticking with it and moving forward, you know, they, they’re starting to see the other side and they’re starting to see those budgets come back, and they’re starting to See interest in what they’re seeing? A lot of people interested big companies interested in social media, and engagement and how can they tell their story? How can they tell it better? And how can they tell it to different languages? That’s a different challenge that they have in Hong Kong than what we have here. Which is we always just think of us, you know, maybe states or cities, but they’re thinking of themselves countries and languages and language barriers and translations and localization and making sure that, you know, I can talk to this audience, like we’re just talking about with videos being different for each segment, I can talk to this audience, but I don’t sound like somebody who this language is, you know, foreign to me. So that’s a that’s a big piece of challenge that they’re doing on how to tell those stories for their brands. So,


I mean, there’s something I think Gary Vee did I think a year ago or so, but basically what he was doing is he would do a speech but Then create a video and do subtitles in every single language, and then push it out there. I don’t know if that that would be personable. But it is interesting how I mean, how can you, especially as the world gets more connected, how can you create more content that reaches everyone rather than just the language that you’re speaking in?


Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s a that’s a good. That’s a good question.


Right there. Yeah, man.


I want to create a video and put it through an app and have it bust out from languages and where it doesn’t


look like an old like an old movie.


You need that crazy software that brought to pop back. Right?


Like, you know, we record this video and then like, you know, we send it out to Hong Kong and it’s two Asian guys talking with you backwards. Yeah,


I mean, that would be interesting. I mean, my brother.


I mean, there’s gonna be some, I mean, a lot of innovation there. I mean, I have you seen recently like Travis Scott. He did a concert on fortnight and It literally broke records that how many What? A couple million people and it’s like you can go your your avatar then you go and see where he’s at. But he’s this big dude in the map. And so it’s like, it’ll be interesting to see how I show. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s even if it’s not a human like persona actually talking I mean I’m sure there’s ways where you can digitize who you are to where then dubs to the language that you’re kind of speaking to you just talk and then there’s translators that kind of go out. That would be interesting.


That would be well, but then like, look at this, this is all things that no one ever a concert in a video game, right? grocery shopping online, like I would never for any of this. I would never buy anything online. Yeah, for when it comes to groceries. No, I had to like I want to go out there and like touch it and feel it and like my wife’s done. She’s done instacart and she’s done like some of the other ones and yeah, I mean, it’s it’s worked out. And since those grocery


brands haven’t started doing more of the the curbside pickup and all that, like I’m surprised there wasn’t a huge push for it because it’s like, it’s They can tell the demand on stuff that’s coming in. I mean, they can tell people want to show up and get more people coming in. Because it’s mean, there’s so many times where you go somewhere, it’s just like they’re completely out where it’s like, hey, if you just waited two more hours, we could have your whole whole thing done.


That’s kind of the direction Amazon was going with their whole foods and Amazon Fresh and stuff. It’s just it’s this has kind of forced the entire industry to jump into it as well. But yeah, I mean, this is that that’s an opportunity as well, for agencies, it’s like think of brands that are maybe not brands, industries that have never done digital and that you as a consumer would never, you would always do it in person. Okay, now that they have to do it in digital, what do they have to do and how can you help them specifically and how can what you do when we’re talking about high funnel and low funnel and not the middle? Like how can you bring those pieces to that industry? Yeah,


I mean, like, to your point, the healthcare industry, and there’s a huge increase in telehealth and I’m just like, wait, I don’t need to go in and Like just to have a conversation, it’s I mean, my wife had one of her appointments through zoom. Yeah. But it’s interesting to see what that all does. Because now it’s like, if you have less built, like the need for buildings, commercial real estate industry is probably gonna come crashing because it’s like, yeah, I mean, it’s, there’s probably gonna be less less buildings, because it’s like, Why Why can’t we do virtual meetings and stuff like that? I mean, I think it’ll come back more than what it is. But I think people are realizing that you can do a lot more digitally than then having to be in person. Maybe we don’t need to fly across country to have a three hour meeting. Why not just do it on zoom like? So what are some of the big things that you guys are focusing on? I mentioned the storytelling. I mean, is there anything else that’s kind of high on your guys’s radar in terms of either industries or trying to help what you guys are trying to do?


So I think the other thing that we as an agency are really focusing on is differentiating ourselves as an agency as what we offer what we’re good at One of the things that we’re really pivoting how we think is that we want to be an agency that provides hope, rather than be it through our stories rather that be through our clients. Rather than be through our work in our campaigns. We want to be a company that specifically works with hope brands and helps companies create hope brands, whatever that is, however that means to you, how do you create hope between who you’re actually dealing with. And there are simple ones, you know, that that might be you know, like a like fitness like once through fitness is one of our clients. Being able to, you know, help people create hope and transform their body. There might be something that’s even more noble, but then you can also think of campaigns and how you can create a campaign that can create hope. And if you just see with what commercials and what things you’re seeing today, that’s a message that a lot of people are speaking Because that’s what people want to hear. And that’s something that I think if we, as an accompany, we’ve thought to ourselves, that’s something that makes us feel good is to create hope. And it’s something that will translate, at least I believe, where you’re not only working with companies that want to be hope brands, but you’re also explaining how you’re different and how when that’s, you know, CFO is going through their budget line. What are these guys do? They’ve created this fantastic program for us, you know, on how, you know, we’re, they’re helping speak directly to our customers, you know, and creating hope with how our product helps them that our customers and just being that, you know, arm of the business being really indispensable with that is something that we’re thinking and how we’re going to pivot how we’re going to, you know, explain our message and differentiate and stand out because at this time, like, you’ve got to, you got to be able to know who you are and be able to explain it properly. Yeah,


100% I mean, what it sounds like it kind of boils down to is just instead of being an agency that says, Yeah, we can buy media Yeah, we can help you shoot this video. It’s really digging down and like, as a company, what’s your Why? What is the impact that you want to have on the world? And that right there always go so far, I mean, that it’s once you can identify that then it’s super easy to build videos and assets around the why and people can connect with the why it’s like finding that vision and essentially, that’s to your point. I think that’s what agencies are gonna need to help do rather than just say, yeah, we can fulfill on what you guys are needing. It’s like how can we be a partner and and ask some questions. You guys might not know how to ask yourselves that help get that why. And then once we have that, it’s like, how can we how can we get that out into content where it can be distributed build campaigns around it? Yeah, that that why is is so big.


Yeah. So that’s the big thing. That’s that’s where we’re moving. That’s where I’m putting a lot of time and effort into and it’s it’s looking internal. It’s saying I’ll Why? Why do you Why are you exist? Why is this important? Why do you go into work every day? You know, like, what is that? How is that helping?


So are you guys setting up any processes or conversations to help get that I mean,


the whole thing down love it like the whole thing down our, our founder, Josh timely, who’s kind of for last couple years has been pretty out of the day to day. He’s back involved, he’s back energized. He’s, you know, because he loves this stuff. He wants to tear it all down and look at it from soup to nuts, right. So. So that’s the kind of process that we’re looking at. And it’s exciting. It’s, it’s a good time to do it. Because, you know, this is gonna be a huge change from what everything looks like in the future.


Yeah, I mean, now more than ever, it’s like most people have a little bit extra time where before, it’s just so much going on. Now’s the time to look in and ask yourself why Why are you showing up every day? Why are you accompany why, like, Who are you trying to serve?


Yeah, no more excuses. Exactly.


So it’s a kind of Wrap up. I mean, there was a lot that we kind of talked about if there’s anything that you can kind of just, I guess, give the world or give brands like what, what are the things that they should maybe be focusing on right now? I mean, that you think is going to get people not only through this but elevated higher than what they were before this whole COVID thing,


right? I would say, you know, look at look at your plan and look at it for what 2020 was, what was your 2020 plan? What was your ad spend? What was your numbers because obviously, that’s all out the door from your original planning, right. And I would say if you look at it at your marketing First off, I think it’s pretty clear that neither of us believe that it’s worthwhile cutting everything. You know, I think that’s pretty obvious. So take what you have. And if you have to cut cut out the middle, leaves the bottom and leave the very top. You know, I think that would be the way that I would say as a brand and I’m looking at my budget and saying this, this money is going to go to this as money is gonna go to this Okay, cut the middle, bottom and top only The other thing I would say is look at other channels look at other opportunities because there is a lot of things and people’s, you the way people are going to be engaging with your brand is going to be different. Like this is going to be a shift and how it’s going to be it’s going to be different for every industry, but there’s going to be new channels, there’s going to be new opportunities. And if you can be a first mover as a brand,


you’re going to put yourself in a much better spot.




no, I love it get used to testing get used to not winning 100% of the time, learn from those losses to then expand on the wins. I love it. Yeah. Well, well, speaking of MW, I mean where can people find you? Where can people find them? Wi Fi?


Yeah, and Wi Fi calm, simple. We’re a full service digital agency in here in Phoenix as well as in Hong Kong doing international but also localized programs. I am the SVP of growth marketing fancy Title sounds sweet really just means I do whatever you know my boss is telling me Come see


ya and you can find me LinkedIn Twitter all that fun stuff


cool Chris appreciate it and I look forward to seeing how how both was fair after this is all over I think we both have big ambitions and see nothing but opportunity and helping brands grow so


yeah it’s always good and I feel like next time I come I’m gonna bring you guys a present for the wall


cool we love present calm song man love presence maybe a VHS


good. I got a box full man.


And next time let’s make it a little bit sooner than what a year, year and a half. Yeah,


stuff like that.


Cool. Appreciate it. No problem.

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