The age of social selling with Chaz Van de Motter of | Rise Grind Repeat 038

In the 38th installment of Rise Grind Repeat, we talk to Chaz Vandemotter as fellow digital marketing enthusiast entrepreneur who is focused on improving the process of social selling. We get deep in the weeds and nerd out on all digital marketing .

To learn more about Chaz check out his website:

Rise Grind Repeat Podcast
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Hosted by Dustin Trout

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chaz van de motter social selling


00:00 Trying to kind of stay ahead of the curve. I don’t want the Instagram police chasing me anymore.

00:04 In today’s episode we talked to Chaz, who’s also a local digital marketer here in the valley. Uh, we talk a lot about the trends that we’re seeing in digital marketing so far here in 2019. Let’s dive right in.

00:51 What is your background? I mean, there’s like you just said and I’m like, okay, well where did you get around these words like that? So what’s a little, just quick five minutes of your history and background? Yeah, well,

01:03 um, I am from Atlanta. I, uh, I watched my dad go from the dude that poured the syrup in the little Coca-Cola machines, um, to the director of international sales, bringing Mexican coke to America actually. Um, and uh, he signed best buy to, to coke contract. Those are his kind of claims to fame in the Koch world. But, uh, I watched him work with obviously the, the most recognized international brand of all time. And, uh, you know, that got me kind of my marketing juices flowing from an early age. And, uh, so I, uh, I was a gymnast growing up and, um, I went to Arizona state to do gymnastics. That’s what got me out here. Um, and during my time at ASU, it’s actually really serendipitous. I, uh, I had a dislocated my shoulder in a competition and were flying back from Colorado Springs.

01:54 You’re competing at Air Force and, uh, I’m sitting there in a sling and this dude next to me is like sitting there like having a Jack and coke starts asking me about like, oh, how’d you, what’d you do to your arm? We start talking, he starts telling me he’s a, he runs an agency. They, uh, like specifically focus on like the legal space and, and kind of attracting customers via social, via programmatic. And so he got me to come in for an interview, ended up working with them for two years, started as an internship, ended up as kind of a campaign manager and then kind of into more of the strategical side of things. And so, um, I, I loved that line of work, but, uh, you know, it was something that I was like, okay, I can take this model and apply it to other cohorts of customers, maybe a little bit less anal people that know then lawyers, you know.

02:44 Uh, and so for me, that was kind of the beginning of my marketing journey and I was studying marketing at ASU during that time as well. And then, uh, got out of ASU. And, uh, I was like, you know, I’ve got a marketing mind, but I mean, I don’t know how to sell. So I got into the sales side of things and, uh, I mean my, uh, my ideology has always been let me invest in myself. So, uh, I, uh, I got into sales, I started doing door to door, got my ass kicked and door to door sales for seven, eight months. Taught me so much though, taught me out of here, no more than anything. And so, kind of understanding that, and the whole time I was kind of tinkering with marketing and solutions. And so, uh, you know, those two kind of collided and led me toward entrepreneurship at a point where I was like, I’m tired of having asked swamp walking around Phoenix.

03:32 And I was like, you know, I wanna I want to be able to call my shots. I want to make more money and I want to be able to do something that I’m passionate about. And, uh, that wasn’t selling boxes of paper, especially in a age of 2019 where people are more, I got more people telling me we’re going paperless, then get out like there’s no soliciting here. And, uh, those are the two biggest things I heard. And I’m like, okay, well, uh, you know, I want people to welcome me into their business and, uh, I wanna give them the opportunity to kind of build off of something that won’t be obsolete, you know, and, and invest in their own kind of business. And so, yeah, that, that led me on an entrepreneurship road and, and, uh, you know, fast forward a year and a half, um, I have an agency, we started in PR and Instagram growth.

04:14 And so that’s kind of our claim to fame. That’s where the majority of our clients lie. Um, but if kind of diversified a little bit, it’s all systems oriented, right? You know, we started seeing, okay, our Instagram clients need a landing page. Okay, let’s get a landing page system put together. Okay. Our clients that have a landing page and have Instagram now they need a website to showcase this stuff on. Now they need a blog for their website, now they need SEO for their website. So it Kinda just turned into this whole kind of, okay, how can we create systems around need-based things that give us this loop, right? Kind of like the way I, the way I kind of a, you know, a recreate that as like, okay, if you’re, if you’re an architect, right? Build the house, get it, get somebody to do the landscaping.

04:58 Now you add that to your portfolio. Now you add, you know, the custom design, now you add the renovations and now it turns into this whole loop of like, let me just refer you through my loop of products that are really complimentary. And in marketing, obviously there’s a lot of opportunity for that. Um, but, but like I said, it’s all pull based is really what we’re focusing on as opposed to putting ads out there. It’s how can we organically grow? How can we capitalize on existing traffic and kind of redirect people to a landing page to a website, to your social media and start that loop, you know, so, um, you know, that, that’s kind of where, uh, where, what’s, what the path has led me down. And, uh, you know, we’re excited about, uh, getting into a little bit of software development now for the Instagram stuff.

05:43 Um, you know, obviously I’m sure that you’re aware as a marketer of all of the kind of automation, uh, blocks that Instagram has been kind of coming up with and the loopholes that they’re closing. So, uh, one of our big that we’re investing a lot in and have been investing a lot in is creating kind of like a CRM kind of sales, uh, application to Instagram specifically. And so for us, we think that that’s a, that’s a huge value add. I think social media is kind of broken and we’re kind of the culprits of it a little bit because it started off in two years ago is the sales proposition was get followers, you know, and then it was getting engagement was the next thing. Once everyone kind of was like, well if followers don’t mean anything, if no one’s engaging, then it turned into get engagement and then it’s like, okay, well now you can buy engagement.

06:31 So it’s like, okay, now it’s like it’s not driving revenue. Exactly. So it’s like, okay. And that’s the other thing is like, you know, what is this doing for me? At the end of the day, I mean followers are great and, and I mean it started turning into, oh, the perceptual value of your page. Having that engaged in having those followers started to be the kind of sales proposition. And while that’s still true, obviously you want to kind of have an established audience. The bigger kind of thing now is what’s the application? How like what is this going to do for my business other than somebody going, Ma, you have a lot followers. Cool. You know, and I mean, think about if you’re a dentist’s office, you’re using social media and you want to grow your audience and grow your engagement. What’s that gonna do for you? You’re cleaning teeth.

07:12 Like every picture you put out there, it’s like, guess what? We’re still cleaning teeth. It yesterday we were creating teeth too. Today we’re cleaning more teeth. It’s like you’re not going to really, you know, grab somebody’s attention to come to the dentist office off of, uh, off a teeth cleaning picture, unless you’re really kind of building a brand, a in niche brand around it, which generally isn’t the case. So it’s like, how can you as that type of business apply social media? And so we’ve kind of figured out, you know, okay, what if we were able to turn this into more of an actionable CRM? Like, are you familiar with So great kind of sales process, right? It’s giving these, these salespeople lead flow and action flow, giving them sequences to communicate with customers. We’re like, you know what, if we could apply a kind of CRN s outreach to Instagram and kind of create something dynamically where going back to my point of social media is broken, people want followers, they want engagement.

08:10 We’re looking at like your top, your top 20% of your clients are probably gonna make up about 80% of your revenue and social media. It’s the same way, you know? And, and I see all these people that have 10,000 plus followers and it’s like you talking to the people that are your biggest fans. Are you just trying to get more followers that are going to not put money in your pocket either. You know, and it’s like how can you edify those people, create a sales process. And I mean, have them continue to be seeing your face and have, and so we look at it as like, okay, well what if we were able to create some kind of flow for people where they’re able to have an action based kind of approach to Instagram that goes deeper than just having a bot follow people or in or engage on your behalf.

08:55 What if you’re able to send dms to the people that are actually engaged. So part of the tool is taking the engagement of like relevant accounts. So like your competitors for example, and pulling that into a spreadsheet where you can then tag those people that are on that spreadsheet create kind of lists of like, here’s my opportunities, here’s my collaborating people I want to work with. Here’s maybe the vcs that I’ve connected with that I want to be making sure I send a message to every 30 days. And you’re applying sequences to those lists and creating a workflow almost to where you have an organized approach now to your social media. Yeah. And so I, uh, that’s kind of the been the big thing that we’ve been diving in on is trying to bring that to market. We’re calling it social cycles. So we’re going into Beta hopefully the next 10 days.

09:40 And then from there, obviously, I mean, congrats to an extent, you know, I never get somebody who’s going to pat myself on the back cause it’s ever changing environment. But, uh, that, that’s kind of our big project that we’ve been kind of honing in on now. But uh, you know, definitely, uh, definitely exciting stuff and trying to kind of stay ahead of the curve. I don’t want the Instagram police chasing me anymore. You know, it’s a pain in the ass. Yeah. You got like teams that 50 developers like out at a Facebook on all these different projects all chasing me down. I’m like, you know, I think that, you know, I’m going to stop fighting you. I’m going to do something that is going to help get more usage out of this. So yeah, that’s kind of, that’s kind of been our approach there.

10:19 Nice. There’s, I mean there’s a lot that you said that that’s huge. I mean, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what channel, what anything it is, it’s, it’s identifying an audience based off of behavior, demographics, whatever it is, and just coming up with a, a strategy on how you’re going to communicate to them. There’s people that have never seen your brand. There’s people who are continually engaging. There’s people who are not engaging but are seeing your stuff and it’s all, it’s all, all right, let’s, how many different audiences can we set up and now what can we do? It’s a lot of if then statements, if they do this, this and this, then let’s do this. I mean, exactly,

10:51 exactly. Like, so for example, like I’m sure you have identified other podcasts that maybe have similar kind of content to you being able to take those audiences and instead of going, okay, your interest is Gary Vaynerchuk, seven years ago on Facebook or whatever, and now I’m an I advertise to you because of that old outdated information. This tool is allowing you essentially to filter it by, okay, over x amount of posts or x amount of days, you’re pulling the engaged people off of that. Um, and, and so it allows you to kind of, like you said, blueprint because you did this. I’m going to like, if you’re, if you have a puppy product for example, right? If it’s like, okay, because you’re engaged five times on this content over the last 30 days, I’ve now qualified you via social media to be somebody that I’m gonna put into this list of opportunities and I’m only going to focus on those a hundred people. I don’t care about the other thousand I might get if I sat there and just spam people and how to Bot following me. Yeah, I’m going to focus on those hundred people because those hundred people could put five bucks in my pocket a month and now I have $500 of recurring revenue built off of just edifying those singles.

12:09 Exactly. And is there anything that you guys are doing, like on the other end, like you’re putting focus on these top engagers. Obviously you can segment the low engagers. Is there anything that you’re doing to create messaging to those people that then get them into the high engagement and so there’s, there’s two ends. One, it’s like you’ve identified your tripling down, but is there opportunity in creating messaging, anything around to get them, oh okay, I see these guys. Then all of a sudden then they do that five times engaging five times and then now that are in here and now you’re kind of growing that because of if your recurring revenue comes from this audience, you’re you to grow it, you have to grow this audience. So is there anything that you guys are doing to hit on that part? And I’d love to hear how you guys are doing this. Is that done through API APIs is a done through.

12:50 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of growing the engagement, obviously the first thing is an in a, I’ll, I’ll, uh, give David Meltzer kind of the, the hat tip on this one. But, um, you got to have a thousand people be able to stand up whenever you have something that you want to give, whether you’re doing a meetup or whatever, you got a thousand people, I can stand up, you’re going to make $1 million off of it. And so we look at it as, you know, how can we edify the existing audience and grow engagement internally and then you know, prospect those people effectively and, and make sure that we’re uh, I mean the, the rule and TV advertising cause you got to see something seven times. And so how can I make somebody get seven notifications and notification is just as powerful in my opinion as, as an email or anything else, you know?

13:37 Yeah. Cause it’s top of mind. You’re checking it every day. I mean the metrics line up for how much people are on Instagram daily. I mean compared to 550 monthly, 550 million monthly active users, I mean over two thirds of those people are daily active users. So it’s insane. But yeah, I think edifying those existing people and then to your, to what you guys do in grade is producing better and better content. So when you are putting those people’s eyeballs, when you’re following that person or liking on that person’s thing, you’re putting their eyeballs on your page, they’re going to be blown away as opposed to, let me just put out content when Willy Nilly, whenever I can have that quality because that’s going to promote that engagement and that’s going to promote that perceptual value just as much as maybe how many followers you have or how many people engaged on your last post. You know? So I think it’s kind of a two headed monster. You have to have that content and you have to have, you know, that edification for internal audience and then, you know, understanding who do I go after next and how do I edify them? Just like I had to find my audience.

14:39 Yeah, it would be fun to go after everything, but it’s basically a segment in the audiences and then figuring out what’s going to drive the heart. The, the largest ROI that then funds the, the, the time, the energy that goes into, yeah, trying to determine stores go out of business.

14:52 I say it in all the classes that I teach, you know department stores go out of business because they’re selling everything to everyone and there’s not an ideal customer in mind. They have to do 20 different marketing campaigns. Yeah, well I mean when you’re, when you have a million customer profiles that you’re trying to attract, then your message is going to be one of two ways. It’s either going to be too vague and not going to hit that pain point and that cord of that, those ideal customers that you really want to go after or you’re going to have to spend a lot of money to create a different campaign per segment of the market you’re going after. So you know, obviously you, you kind of reverse engineer that and go, okay, who’s my first ideal customer and that buying pro persona. And once I’ve identified that person, then now I can maybe say, okay, this could also work for maybe 35 and older like it did for 25 to 30 you know, so it’s really about, you know, custom tailoring that messaging to that ideal customer, hitting that pain point.

15:48 Getting them to raise their eyebrows and go, Huh, I’m dealing with that problem. And so, you know, yeah, you’re absolutely right. It can get very expensive or it’s just not going to be effective. It’s one of the two, you know, just expensive. It’s just when he start breaking it up like that, so, okay, we got all these different channels and then we got five personas for each channel and it’s like, I mean, sure, 100,000 a month sounds like a lot, but once you start running like that and then it’s like, oh, we got $4 a day for each one. It’s like we’re not, you’re not going to do much. It’s better to, yeah, let’s focus on what is driving the highest ROI. Once we start driving revenue from that, let’s invest and fund the next persona, the next channel, whatever it is. Love it. Um, are you guys doing anything?

16:25 So, I mean, I’m all about the analytics, the being able to track everything. That’s always been the biggest push back when an agency is like, that’s awesome. We’re seeing all these impressions, clicks, all this stuff. But what is it doing for my business? Are you guys folding that in to your system at all in terms of, hey, we got this person, we’re working on how we can engineer that to really promote, you know, hey, this is being, this is effective. Part of it comes from, I mean your insights. If you have a business account attached to your Instagram, your insights are going to tell you a lot of, you know, where like what traffic are you producing and how are you getting people to your website? Uh, there’s a couple of tools that we love that help us to kind of make that case to our clients.

17:07 Um, obviously Google analytics is great. That’s going to give you, if you have a specific landing page for each channel, then it’s going to give you a lot of information about, you know, not only how much is coming from that landing page that you have on your Instagram, but also like what those personas are and if those people are coming back. So I think tracking is, is hugely important. Um, and you know, I think that, you know, I love a tool called hotjar. Uh, I don’t know I’ve used that. Uh, but uh, yeah, that allows you to kind of map out what is happening and if you’re being effective. I mean, I, I study Robert Cialdini’s work religiously, uh, in the power of influence and you know, I think that there’s a lot of different tactics that you can apply to kind of the flow of your marketing funnel and how to get somebody in a top of funnel through social media to go down the funnel without having to be put to work or feel like, I’ve got to, I’m leaving, I’m leaving Instagram to go wait on this page.

18:06 It’s buffering. And then I got to click two more times to get to where I need to go. Exactly. It’s like, how can I eliminate three touch points and still be able to get my message across and get the information I need from somebody. So things like hotjar, things like these different tracking scripts allow us to be able to make a case of like, hey, we’re getting people off of Instagram into this next like kind of facet. And the way to get that traffic outside of just organic, like let me click on that, is sending that out via DM to your existing audience, to your new followers, to those prospects. Hey, here’s my new youtube video. I mean if you’re sending that and you gain those hundred thousand true fans, now you’re, I mean you see it with big youtubers, they have these email lists and things like that and it’s just these big distribution networks to where it’s like, okay, I have linkedin distribution channel, I have this distribution channel, this one, this one, and now when I put out my content I can just hit it on all of these different fronts.

19:03 And that’s all. And then you have your tracking, it’s going to monitor, okay, 20% came from here, 20% came from here. So that, that is definitely a challenge of how can we get that into our console to make that argument. But we coach our clients on, here’s the five things you need to do in that are going to help you to make that case because we do have a reporting console that gives you insight into, you know, new followers and crushes on top front end metrics, but not the [inaudible] set up to show that and all that. And I think that as we kind of build this, those are things that we really want to make a strong case about. I mean, we see a lot of different use cases here though. I think one of the biggest use cases that I think, uh, we don’t think about is, um, the people that have existing audiences not only getting their 20%, their top 20% of their engagers moving, but with influencer marketing being as big as as it is a business, they pay about 10 to 15% of total engagement on an influencers post to have them promote something.

20:06 Right? So let’s say they have a thousand likes on a post. On average, they’re getting paid about 10 to 15% of that, about a hundred, 150 bucks per post. It’s kind of the industry average, and so taking that and going, okay, business a, if you’re going to work with this influencer now when they post, you can scrub that engagement off of that last post that they had go out and you now have a, a robust list of theirs. There’s a, there’s the 5,000 people that interacted now how you can create, how to create a system around engaging with those people because you’ve now just made your net a lot smaller. Oh yeah. I mean, it’s just being smart. It’s like, Hey, you know that influencer marketing

20:48 is big, right? Yes. On average it would cost this to get that, which over a course of a month, if you’re doing this twice a week, it’d be five to $10,000. Yup. Hey, what if you could do all that and even get one on one engagement, right. For 8% of the cost. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, that’s an easy sell. I mean, once you get all those yeses, everyone, I mean, everyone sees the value in, in influencer marketing, Indians here, it’s word of mouth. I think that there’s a lot of focus on the wrong KPIs and stuff like that, which I mean, exactly. Yeah, you’ve definitely called out. And so I mean, yeah, what you guys have is super powerful. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. Yeah. So how, I mean, how are you guys doing this? You mentioned the spreadsheet and I bring up API, this is the word super excited about it. As aps in general, there’s so much value, there’s so much opportunity there. So like how are you guys making all this happen?

21:36 Yeah. So, um, you know, I’ve had to kind of become a CTO a little bit just to, I mean, I’ve been taking classes on agile, on scrum and how like the structure of teams needs to go, how I need to communicate because for us on a bootstrap level, and I’m sure that a lot of your audiences bootstrapping their ventures, you have to be cognizant and a, and apply the power of broke. You know, the power that Damon John Power broke. You can get very, very intuitive and very, very, uh, what’s the word, you know, innovative by being broke. And if so, have you have, okay, here’s the money that I can allocate to this project. I know on average, a developer’s going to cost five grand per x amount of hours for whatever the task is. How can I create sprints and communicate this in the most effective way to that developer to where I’m minimizing the time they need to spend on it and maximizing the success rate on it.

22:34 So in that front, in terms of getting the development done, um, you know, I think that coming up with the design internally, making sure that you’ve answered every question you can possibly come up with before taking that to the developer, you’re going to save money in terms of creating that like out of thin air, which is kind of what we’ve done. But I mean, there’s a lot of open source tools that help, you know, a lot of things out there that already exist that you’re able to build off of. So, um, you know, we’ve, we’ve used that kind of strategically to help us to go, okay, here’s what’s out there between, you know, HootSweet and buffer and outreach and here’s kind of maybe a framework that we can leverage that’s out there. And now I’m going to take that framework. I’m going to take my literally exact blueprint of how I see this.

23:23 I mean Steve Jobs, I, I read read all about Steve Jobs and how he created kind of the interface, the dos and he worked with the, you worked with the design team for months and months before even going to Wazniak in the coders and going let’s build this. It was all about I need to see this vision and exactly how this is going to function before I, it’s kind of like the lean startup methodology, you know, like I’m going to iterate as I go because I’m bootstrapped and I, I don’t have unlimited funds to just throw at this. I need to make sure that with each sprint and each functionality that I add to this, that it’s going to make a difference in terms of value added to the customer. And it’s going to make a difference in terms of our selling proposition of the value that we can bring.

24:08 And so, you know, taking it in steps and making sure that you’re kind of vetting the people that you have developing it, or if you’re the developer, making sure that you understand exactly what that design looks like and exactly what the expectations are. It’s going to eliminate that risk and really that extra spend, uh, when, when building a tool like this. So a, but again, I’ve had to put my CTO pants on because I’m not a tech guy who really, I mean I’m in the SAS world and I understand the structure, but I’m more in the sales and in marketing side more than even, you know, tech, finance, things like that. So wearing a lot of hats, but trying to delegate and create systems and, and really just have conversations with people that are, that are ahead of where I’m at. You know, people are willing to talk to you, especially younger and bootstraps and people that are like, you know, here’s what I’m trying to do.

25:01 You know, it’s been, it’s been amazing to see, even with this startup community, how much support there’s been for. Let me jump on the Beta. I’d love to tell you what I think like, and so, you know, there’s been a lot of support there. You just got to ask for it. My Dad always said you like ask, you know, it’s, it’s hard to ask but ask. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, that’s kind of how we’ve, we’ve approached the, the tech side, which can be a little intimidating obviously for people that are bootstrapped entrepreneurs or have an idea but can’t really bring it to fruition on their own. Um, so hopefully that kind of shed some light.

25:34 Yeah, no, definitely. Um, and then, I mean, you mentioned a couple things earlier that, you know, you had this and then, okay, we got people doing this. So then we had to drive them somewhere, which then created a landing page and then you got us. Yeah. Basically you’re building as, it’s the whole customer journey and kind of needed at all. Um, really with that, it’s, it’s the user experience. And so when it comes to an app, anything like that, that’s huge. You mentioned hotjar. Is there, can you explain anything that you’ve used where you thought you had a perfect, you looked at hotjar or some somebody you got data bad that goes wow, we were way off what to do and what were the results?

26:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I think that there’s a lot of, I mean, as applied to what we’re doing, I think it really comes down to monitoring the analytics and the success in testing. I mean, we’ve had, I’ve, I’ve put a team together to manually grow Instagram accounts as opposed to the automation and go, okay, let’s see. Like let’s make sure we know exactly what we’re starting with. We’re going to do the same action count person versus machine and we’re going to see what the results look like. But you have to iterate and you have to test every kind of possible scenario. So in that sense, know that’s not really necessarily a piece of software, but that’s helped to shed some light on doing some recon on what Instagram is, is allowing us to do. And not allowing us to do a, but, but I mean in terms of some tools that I love, I think that, uh, in terms of creating content, a couple of things that are absolutely phenomenal and I know you’ve probably heard of these, but uh, you know, I love keywords everywhere.

27:07 Um, that’s a chrome extension, formerly all keywords. Um, but that’s a chrome extension that gives you insight into how much search volume there is. So if you have like, let’s say you’re doing the lawn care business and you type in lawn care, it’s going to give you a CSV on the side of downloadable or you can look at it right there and it gives you a list of here’s all of the other complimentary search terms, how much volume there is, how much average cost per click, dollar amount is. You know, what the competition is for these different keywords. Um, that’s super imperative to understanding what people actually care about and are looking up. Because if you’re just creating content off of like what I think is going to be great, like I mean it’s not going to work nearly as well as really kind of following like you follow the money you follow in the volume.

27:57 So I love keywords everywhere is a, is a great one. And then, uh, another one I use is Cora for kind of content discovery. Um, core is kind of an aggregated database of questions that are online. So you search a keyword that you have identified as something relevant to you and your business, whatever it may be and it’s going to spit out queries from top to bottom of, you know, if it’s like lawn care, it’s like what are the best lawn care practices or uh, how much should I be paying for a lawn care service? Like it’s going to give you all these commonly asked questions and so you can build off of that and go, okay, I liked this question. It’s applicable. I can make a video around it. And I know we’re kind of going down to content strategy standpoint here, but I think that this is super valuable.

28:41 So if you identify, you know, let’s say let’s say the, uh, I’ll come with a different example. Uh, let’s say that you’re doing rollerblading is like, you’re, you’re into rollerblading. It’s a niche thing. There’s not as much competition. You’re like, okay, I’m going to be the rollerblading expert guy, right? I’m going to go in Cora and I’m going to look up rollerblading and it’s going to spit out all these things. And I noticed that, you know, there may be some questions about like, why is rollerblading not in the x games or something? And it’s like, okay, I’m going to make a youtube or not even youtube. I’m going to write a blog about why rollerblading isn’t in the x Games First K 800 to 1200 word blog post. I create that. Now I have a script for my youtube video that’s going to be five to seven minutes long where I’m pretty much reading my blog posts, right?

29:34 So now that I’ve created that five minute blog on youtube, I’m going to go interview somebody that’s in a rollerblading space like this and I’m going to present my arguments to that person. And Go, Hey, I’m so I like what is your take on my rollerblading isn’t in the x games. You’re a high level like rollerblading guy. Like what? What do you think? Yeah, and then you now have a 20 minute podcast about that. Now I’m going to record that, right, so now I have a five to seven minute video and a recording of a podcast. Now I can chop those up into little bits and pieces. Now between 25 to 27 minutes of video content, you could really bust that down into 27 one minute videos if you wanted to. Now you have everything to post in terms of your video content on Instagram, Facebook, linkedin, and then out.

30:25 Now I’m going to take those videos and the transcripts or maybe my blog posts and identify a couple of quotes that I think are relevant. I’m going to take a picture of my face and put the quote on the graphic and now I’ve got quotes on the graphic of it and then I’m going to take, you know, like pictures of the person I interviewed in the, in the kind of set up, and then I’m going to do the same thing with the quote that maybe they said, but now all of a sudden you have so much freaking content to where people approached the content side and go, Huh, I gotta make a post on Instagram. Um, all right, let me think about what I’m going to say. And then I made one post. Okay, now onto the next, what’s my next post going to be? It’s like, no, you’re approaching it wrong. You start at that. That 30,000 foot level is work your way back. Yeah.

31:14 Literally what you just said is our entire model. Like it, I mean, verbatim what you just pitched, um, or what you just went over and like, I mean, that’s, that’s everything. It’s like, I’ll, I’ll sit in meetings and it’s like, no, we want to produce this video of, we want to, we get questions about this, we want to do a video about that. Am I okay? Well then let’s look at the keyword research and hey, this there is 7,000 times the amount of people looking for this. And it’s essentially tailoring or producing your content around what people are actually searching for. Who, who would have thought that that would actually where you know, someone’s asking a question, you answer it and that leads to a conversation.

31:49 Yeah. And I mean, uh, I, I, I follow guy, Dan Fleischman, uh, youngest dude ever to take a company public and uh, you know, he has some great advice as well outside of the search volume. The other way to kind of do recon is to look at what’s trending and be quick with your content. So he did a video about how the power ball is at like 16 600 million and there was like lines out the gas station and liquor store and he took a video of like some people waiting in line out the door and he’s like, people wait outside for 200 or $600 million powerball, but they won’t wait outside for $200 million power ball. Like that’s not enough money to wait outside with the 600 and so he did that during the whole buzz of the $6 million power ball. Yeah. And you know, you’re capitalizing on that search volume just as much because you know, media outlets, they’re covering it, they’re seeing it a lot.

32:48 And so if you can kind of jump into that at the same time that it’s hot, then people are going to be more willing to watch that. So that’s the other way to find that recon. But it’s, it’s funny to me as well. And, uh, I, I think that, you know, I struggle on youtube growth just as much as anybody else. Youtube is kind of this harder kind of animal because you can’t do these strategies like Instagram and even on Instagram. Um, yeah. It’s like, you know, you almost have to start looking at not as much on the volume of how much is out there in terms of search volume and go, okay, this gets 10,000 views in, this gets 200 like searches a month. It’s like you almost need to look at what is the volume of content that’s out there based on that volume.

33:31 And if you can go, okay, I’m going to go after things that have a hundred to a thousand people searching them, then I’m going to look at, okay, how much, how many results are out there on youtube or on Google for that. So now it’s like, you know somebody that comes to me and goes, well Chaz, that’d be great if I could make a video about like, you know, the, the power ball or whatever it is and it’s just going to go viral. But I don’t have an audience. I don’t really, I’m not really spectacular at creating content. How in the heck am I going to capitalize off of some big search term that already has big influencers posting about it. You’re going to end up in the 10th page on youtube and on Google for that. You’re never going to be seen anyway. So you’re not going to get traction that way. You’ve got to focus on those more micro niche kind of

34:17 long tail long tail keywords, basically ones that don’t have tons of volume, but there’s also not a lot of people producing a lot of content around it. And yeah, it’s Kinda the double edge approach. And I mean that’s the, yeah. Literally everything you’re talking about right now is, is how we’re going about it. And it’s like, it, it’s crazy. It’s, I feel like it’s just such a, like an obvious thing, but it’s crazy when you start talking about the strategy and all that, how much the conversation, because we’re about to launch, um, just the whole core a like campaign, like to your point, like literally gonna have someones go out and look, we have our, we have our, a pillars of content that we did basically do and talk about. So going to have a spreadsheet that lists all the different questions, going to produce a video that speaks to it and then post it and essentially it’s on me, he’s for SEO, all this stuff. But yeah, hitting on what people are looking for, but it’s just crazy the, I mean as we’re talking about it, it just seems so black and white and obvious. Like where do you think that a lot of this gets missed because you guys are doing a lot of marketing stuff, helping with the analytics, getting seen and all that. I mean it seems so obvious a where, where do you think gets lost in translation for I guess business owners? I

35:24 think that the big thing is, you know, obviously youtube is becoming a more and more of a behemoth in terms of the education side of things. Second biggest search engine out there and you’ve got a lot of people that are putting youtube content out and I think that kind of the defacto place to go and get knowledge about, all right, why don’t you to pay a marketer, I’m going to go do youtube first. And just to look at like, okay, what do I need to do with SEO? What do I need to do with content? And you know, a lot of what’s out there is, you know, things that are almost not even working anymore or things that only work for that big influencer that has that audience and is in a non crowded space. And it’s like, you know, you hear stuff like Neil Patel and these big, you know, influencer people giving you the five things that you need to know.

36:14 And it’s usually not very granular. It’s very, yeah. And it’s like, you know, it gives people the sense of this is going to work for me. Oh, this makes sense. I just need to add these five tags to my video and all of a sudden it’s going to pop off. And then they go and do it and they’re like, well, what’s happening that this doesn’t work? You know? And it’s like, you know, you’re getting fed the wrong information for the level that you’re at and a, so there’s a lot of that out there that I think industry is over promising and a little under. Exactly. Exactly. Because you hear these success stories and it’s like, okay, cool. Like that worked for you in your specific niche and your specific industry with your audience at the level that it was at. That’s not going to be huge overlapped for everybody out here trying to do marketing.

36:56 So I think it gets lost in translation there. And yeah, I think those unrealistic expectations can kind of make people have the wrong idea about the effectiveness of our social media and video content and things like that can really produce an ROI. And people kind of go back into their cave of like, oh, I tried this and I got a couple of followers and I did this and that, like you’re saying, and it didn’t work. So I’m going back to what works, which is getting on the phone with people and going to networking events. Chaz, like that’s what I’m going to do. And it’s like, okay, like if you’ve ever read kind of any of the like business and that trend of 21st century with a, uh, Robert Kiyosaki, I mean, then I know a lot of that stuff is not applicable nowadays. But one thing that I really hone in on is, are you a business owner or are you building wealth?

37:44 And, uh, you know, there’s business owners that they’re doing like direct translation of the work they put in is how much money they make. And so it’s like, okay, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna say, this isn’t gonna work for me, I’m going to go work harder yourself. You’re going to be caught in this busy loop of never breaking through the ceiling as opposed to if you’re looking at building a team and kind of, you know, letting people that are good at this, take that and run with it and it at least train you in the right way that your ideology will change in a heartbeat. Once you start to take the right approach, identify the right customer, and then kind of apply the strategies that we talked about and really kind of make that net smaller. I think that, you know, people approached social media with this huge ass net and they’re like, let’s scoop everything that we can and we’re going to get all these followers, men, women, children, every age group, every demographic, just because we need it and we need the followers. That’s how we win on social media. It’s like you just not approaching it in the, in the right way. It’s gotta be more micro, it’s gotta be more focus because there’s too much noise out there now. Um, so, and people have seen everybody trying to grow. They know the gimmicks, they know all the ployees. And so they know the rented Lamborghini for the video and very your ad, you know, so it’s really about, you know, I think taking a, taking a different approach, reducing the noise and kind of honing in on that ideal customer.

39:08 Everything that you’re just saying. I mean it’s just so in line with what we do, how we think and everything like that. You mentioned narrowing or making a smaller audience or are a casting as a smaller net. It’s, it’s, I think you just said something that I, you helped me explain it in a better way. It’s, it’s everyone gets so caught up in the, like anytime I get forecasting or audiences, I always get the weight. There’s only that many audience. Like we know we need to see hundreds of thousands of, uh, of audience. And it’s like, well no, you don’t even have a budget to reach all of them. Like everyone has the backwards approach and trying to get bigger volume, bigger quantity. But it’s like the more you can layer in, the more you know about him, about these people, the smaller of an audience. Now your budget goes further. You can hit everyone, but now you can articulate a message to what they want. Like the more you can layer in, the smaller you can meet that audience, the, the veteran communicate.

40:00 Amen. Amen. No, I, you’re hitting the nail on the head and I think that, you know, it’s really that micro approach that’s going to get you that traction. And it goes back to just understanding your buyer persona. And I always tell my clients, and in the classes I teach, it’s like, listen, like, who is your ideal customer? Or like, let’s say I’m working with realtors. Who’s your ideal customer? Home buyers. Okay, well, good luck with your business. And it’s like, try again. Who’s your ideal customer? Um, people in the West Valley that are looking to buy a home try again and I, Oh, well they want this. They want a house between this level and this level of 500,000 to 750,000. Okay. Try again. Uh, well they, uh, they speak Spanish. Okay. Try again. Uh, well they have three kids to five kids are looking for x amount of bedrooms.

40:51 Okay. Try it one more time. Uh, it’s a military family that speaks Spanish, that has this amount of kids. Okay, good. You’ve written, you’ve narrowed it down. Now you can build a brand around being them, the bilingual military family, like a realtor. Now you know who you’re going to go after based off of hitting those pain points for that ideal customer. If you’re looking to buy a luxury house in Scottsdale, you’re going to have different objections to the Sa to getting a house. You’re going to have different kind of thoughts about what your budget is and who you’re going to work with. They want to work with. The guy that’s suited up that is driving a Rolls Royce around and carting them around to the these really whiny, like really nice places and and wining and dining them where you know, maybe a military family that moves around a lot.

41:38 Once a realtor that knows the acronyms for the different kind of things that they deal with and knows, okay, you’re going from this base to that base. Okay, I’m familiar with that base. I can help you out. Like that is the pain point they want. They don’t need the fancy car and the big suit and all that stuff. So it’s building a brand just as much as this communicating to that ideal customer. And when you can build a brand around that ideal customer, then you can scale your business through referrals and through really niche marketing. Um, and, and so, you know, you see it happen with so many of these businesses. Um, but, uh, you know, you really gotta have them get it. You know, they have to get why you’re the guy for them. And I think that, you know, one thing that I was listening as podcast a with a, a Peloton founder, um, and, uh, he was talking about how like when they were first starting, he, they were trying to figure out their distribution channels and, and they started with, you know, let’s get a, let’s get a spot in the mall and let’s just put a bike in their kind of like Tesla does.

42:37 And uh, so they get a spot in the mall and he figured out I’ll close 50% of the people I talk to, if I can get the headset on him. And get him sitting on the bike peddling. If they can just do that, I will sell one of every two people because it’s like thing I know that like, yeah, so it’s the same kind of ideas like how can you get them to hit that thing? They got to hit that right pain point of like, I could be doing this at home. I don’t need to go to the the cycle place. Like I can do this when I wake up in the morning. I don’t have to worry about when I’m doing it. I’m busy. Like you’re hitting all of those pain points that they have about why they aren’t going and doing the spin class. They get it. So it’s like you’ve got to dynamically market to that niche and have them just ding. Once they get that then I mean the rest is easy, you know?

43:22 And then you have to know how to have a conversation that gets them there and a lot, one word that you kept bringing up in that was the pain point. By narrowing it down, you can see the pain point, the pain point of a 70 year old rich dude is going to be different than an 18 year old, you know, single person. I’ve first time home buyer, all that stuff. So what the barrier to making that purchase or that next step is going to be different amongst all these different audiences. And by narrowing it down, you can then hone in on what that pain point is and more so show the solution or the value that you bring to overcompensate for that pain point. And that’s, that’s all it is. Once you know who it is, this is the problem you face. Cool. This is how we overcome that. Cool. Now let’s go. It’s easy. It’s, it’s super easy. There’s a lot of discussion, a lot of strategy on those key words. Like what Korea, what messaging are we going to say, what images and all that stuff. But I mean it’s just at the end of the day just having a community or having a conversation,

44:16 99% of the people that I work with that tell me that social media doesn’t work or they tell me that EMEA, you guys here, you’re probably just as much as I do. Like, oh this doesn’t work for me though. Like I’ve tried, it doesn’t work. It’s like okay, who’s your ideal customer? And they give me this huge wide birth of like, well everybody needs like to eat food. It’s like no that is not your ideal customer dude. Like that’s why social media doesn’t work cause you’re not, you’re not, you’re not compounding the work you’re putting into that one audience. It’s your, you’re deploying all these different ships and it’s like you’re not going after one over and over again. That’s the rule of seven, you know, hit the ideal customer seven times instead of sending out seven ships to seven different like customer like basis. You know

45:04 how I try and paint the picture is like by doing that, this number is being honestly reaching a lot of people, but all you’re doing is running around the city yelling and hoping that someone hears it and comes to you as opposed to, oh, this person is a business card and Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. And walking up to them and saying, Hey, I am such and such. I can help with this, this and this. That conversation is going to lead to a lot more opportunity than running around yelling, I saw insurance. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

45:29 And it’s exactly, you have to, and we’ve talked, we talked about this earlier, but you have to understand what those attributes or actions are that are not even really in the scope of what your offer may be. You know, if I’m going after mothers, then I like my product may be is centered around like let’s say like baby care or something. There’s other ways other than the mom shopping at babies r us to understand that they’re the mom. You know, like there’s other places to find them and like you’re, you make a great point. Like what am I going to do if I have a, if I wrapped my car with Instagram growth to stuff, like then like, am I going to be more effective driving around, um, like everywhere going and sitting at Instagram headquarters or something. I mean, that’s a bad example, but like you relate that to like, if I’m, if I’m the guy that’s the contractor and I’m going to wrap my truck and the contractor information, then I’m going to go to like, like ace hardware and leave my car there instead of driving around everywhere, you know, find that those people you’re going to serve best in and go after that loop first.

46:33 You know, it’ll scale from there more than you realize because people are going to be much more willing to refer you if they’re like, I know that divorce a, that divorce realtor that helps put you in a home after the divorce compared to, I know that realtor, you know, you’re going to hit that person like way harder because you’re specializing in that specific niche. You know, so

46:56 just have a, just a better conversation just lays more opportunity. So as a kind of wrap up, I mean there’s a lot that year doing that. So awesome. I mean there, I think there’s a lot that our paths didn’t cross a lot. I feel, I mean what it, what are I guess some problems, hurdles, anything that you guys are facing now, whether it be just from a logistical standpoint, marketing standpoint, what is something that you guys are having trouble with and how you guys working on it?

47:23 Yeah, so we talked a little bit earlier about kind of the evolution of the, of the kind of sales pitch, like our offering where it was followers and then engagement. It’s always like staying ahead of the curve. So I think that one thing that we’re trying to jump over the hurdle now is there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of people that are kind of skeptical of even going down the Instagram road now because they know, oh, Instagram updated. Oh I got notifications about our, I was making inauthentic likes. I don’t want to mess my account up. Like things like that and just helping people to understand like, no, this is within the terms and conditions. This is a new way of doing it as well as like the other kind of pushback that we get is like, oh well I liked it better when it was automated.

48:05 I don’t want to touch it, you know, so we’re trying to come up with like, okay, can we take our software and create a managed service that takes the, takes the manual work out of maybe what somebody is willing to do but still allows them to take advantage of this system. Um, so, you know, those are things that we’re trying to kind of hone in on as well as, you know, just coming up with marketing messaging to go with these different use cases. I mean, as we talked about, an influencer is going to use this tool differently than maybe a business that’s paying an influencer would different than a solo preneur would different than maybe a social media manager of a large company would. So, you know, there’s a lot of different use cases and it’s really about honing in on what’s going to provide the most value and how can we communicate that value to those ideal customers.

48:52 Kind of like we just talked about. I mean, and it takes a lot of strategy and it takes a lot of ab testing and understanding what’s working, what isn’t, and kind of deploying things like hotjar and these little tools to help us to just get data about what works and what doesn’t. So there’s a lot of iteration and strategy that goes into being able to feel good about, you know, throwing marketing dollars and getting salespeople and moving with it. So those are kind of things that we’re looking at kind of hurdling. And I think that those are problems that we weren’t looking at a couple months ago because we were working on, okay, is this even feasible to build? And I think in our DNA has always been about action based marketing. You know, if they do this then I’m going to do this. So I think that it matches up with that ideology.

49:36 We’re very proud of kind of the MVP that we’ve created, but it’s all about now like how do I take it to the next level? How do I really provide value and how do I price this and navigate the competitive atmosphere that is out there where there may not be something that’s exactly what I’m creating. But there’s things that embody pieces of what we’re creating. So where are they priced at? What are the customers that they’re going after? Is it the same customers us? Is there an overlap? Is this something that can work in collaboration with other tools? And so those are the kinds of conversations that we’re having now in terms of, okay, what is that selling proposition? Who is that ideal customer and where are they best going to be able to use this and see value? So those are things that we’re thinking about and strategies meetings that we’re having.

50:22 And you know, it’s, uh, it’s hard being a bootstrapped entrepreneur. You a has to figure out amen to that. You know, and then you wear a lot of hats. But at the end of the day, I mean, I, I can’t, I can’t be more thankful for the people that have helped me in the situation. And I’ve been able to kind of create for myself off of really just saying, I’m going to go after this man. I mean, I, I’m not the world’s best marketer, but I am definitely somebody that doesn’t want to be outworked. And I take that grit and things that I had experienced in gymnastics and I just apply it. I apply the stuff I learned from my father with the Coca-Cola stuff. I just, I apply that to what I’m doing now and I go, you know, like this has been done before, this can be done again and I, you know, you can make it happen.

51:05 So I think that for all the bootstrapped entrepreneurs out there, like they were listening or this, that comes across their desk, like, just keep moving forward, man. You keep moving forward. And chase difficulty is a big thing for me. Chase difficulty because if you’re going after what seems to be the obvious and easy way of doing things, then that loophole will close or the organ to have way more competition and you’re going to be the one catching up to those people as opposed to being the innovator. So chase the difficulty and do things that maybe set you out of your comfort zone that maybe don’t seem feasible today or tomorrow, but you know, investing in that type of a service and that type of an ideology around your business is what’s going to make it sustainable. And it’s going to make those customers go crazy over it and, and put your business in their mouth when they talk to their networks, you know? So, um, that I’ll leave you with, with that is something that I think is extremely powerful, especially at a, at a bootstrap level as an entrepreneur.

52:08 Definitely the only thing that is constant is changed. And then, yeah, I am a huge proponent of keep throwing yourself into uncomfort. It’s just fun to go through it. You learn it, you don’t die at the end of the day. It’s just much more enjoyable. Like it’s just like ta, why did I do it? But I mean the next day you don’t look back and go, damn, I’m still hurting from that. You know what I mean? Then it’s just like just do it. Growth will happen and it’s so fun. Um, I’ll kind of end with, we’re working on something that Kinda like we’re doing like an app review type of thing like a I was telling you about but there might be some opportunity once you guys go a bit further, once you’ve identified some of the uh, maybe industries or job titles that that would use. What you’re doing is maybe you can come in and we can help do what we’re doing were highlight the actual UX of, of what you’re doing and then you can walk through it Kinda like a green screen type of thing. But you could just hear the hashtags that you could target and just walk through. If you’re a carpenter, here are the different hashtags you can do competitors that you can target and show how it works. Once people see it, I think all of a sudden be like, Oh wow,

53:08 I love it. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with Capterra look up Capterra c a, p. T, e r a, that like builds off of what they’ve built, which I think takes it to a whole new level in terms of the personality of that. So I think that, you know, yeah, check, check out. Cause they, they do. That’d be somebody that you’d want to kind of build off of. But a dude, you know, I love that. I’d love to be in here. I’d love to be in here showing and uh, you know, yeah. Like I said, get into Beta gonna figure it out and I mean, you can bet that I’m going to continue to move forward cause I, that’s, that’s what I do, you know, and so, uh, no, I appreciate you having me on. I think you guys are doing a great job.

53:47 This is super awesome set and uh, yeah, you guy, you guys are doing it right. And I think that, you know, it really comes down to just being consistent. And I see that with you guys. So more power to you. And I’m, I’m excited to be seeing what you guys come up with with this as well as, uh, kind of the, the other people that you’re interviewing. Cause uh, you know, the, the people that I’ve seen on this so far have been people that are haters in the Phoenix market. And I think that, you know, being able to kind of give people opportunity to learn from these different people is, is phenomenal. It’s a, it’s a great value add. So

54:19 love it, appreciate it, appreciate that you see it. So, um, yeah, tell everyone where they can find you. The name of the app. Just kinda give yourself a shout out.

54:25 Yeah. Yeah. So a Chaz Vanda mater with a z, you can find me on Instagram, linkedin. Um, our website is social Um, that is not going to be out there quite yet. So if you look it up the next week, probably not going to find a whole lot, but the, the tool is called social cycle. And, uh, for more information on Instagram girl stuff, you can check out elite marketing That’s where we’re doing the kind of automation growth. So, uh, yeah, definitely appreciate you having me on. And, uh, you know, I looking forward to hearing more of these.

54:56 Love it, man. Yeah, we’ll definitely chop it up again. Yeah, appreciate it, man.

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