Geotargeting vs Geofencing with Brian Barrett of Oak Creek Trail | Rise Grind Repeat 045


The tools available to you for digital marketing are, compared to even just a few years ago, pretty mind-blowing. But like any tool, how well they work depends on:

1) How you use them, and, 2) What you need them to do. Just because somebody has all the bells and whistles doesn’t mean they ought to be blowing and ringing them 24-7.

Brian Barrett, managing partner of Oak Creek Trail, is perfectly willing to tell a client, “Yeah, that’s a really cool thing that you don’t need right now,” and explain to them why.

Does your marketing consultant do that? Listen to Brian and judge for yourself if your marketing dollars are going toward what will do you the most good. In this interview Brian covers quite a bit including geotargeting vs Geofencing.

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geotargeting vs geofencing

| Rise Grind Repeat 045 |

00:00:19 today’s episode of rise, grind, repeat, talk to Brian Barrett from Oak Creek trail talk all things digital marketing including the differences and geo-targeting and geo-fencing, building a brand, the future of marketing technology and analytics even draws on our desk top, right in just geo-fencing in general.

00:00:52 So depending on the industry, it seems to sink or swim. If your primary objective is something like a lead generation [inaudible] it’s probably not going to be great. Even if you have a store, uh, like e-commerce or if you have a physical story, try to sell a consumable product, it’s probably okay. But if you’re a B2B or certainly if you’re more of a lead gen company, then it has limited value. It has some appeal because it feels like you’re targeting, you know? Yeah. But there’s very few instances I think where you’re find, yeah, you’ll get the target demographic rights, like graphic profiles and all that sort of stuff. But by the time you get down to user behavior, like just because I’m close to a car dealership, like I’m not buying a car cause I’m not shopping for a car or just because I’m close to a red lobster. Like I’m not interested in red lobster right now. So you’re wasting impressions.

00:01:55 Yeah, it’s a, so what are you said? It seems like it’s just getting, I don’t know. I see it more and more just like search engine land, stuff like that. But because what it used to be is you have, I mean a one mile radius or whatever it may be, and you have to be in there to, uh, to be targeted. And now it’s, if you even touch it, then you can target them for up to 90 days or something like that. And so I think that’s what the biggest differences. But what’s cool is that propelled media. Um, they have where you could layer in on top of just geo-targeting. Uh,

00:02:28 so they had, they had a case study where they wanted or someone wanted to reach owners of subways and so you could have how often they go in and stuff like that. And so layering that type of stuff in. And that’s where, it’s funny you mentioned the B2B. I think that there actually is a lot of opportunity in the B to B side cause if there’s a specific company that you want to target and you can target them and then they can layer in the C suite level people, stuff like that. Um, what are your thoughts on that

00:02:54 if you don’t have those additional layers? Again, I think if I was bullish or bearish on geo-targeting just in and of itself as a service or something you’d buy as advertising on bearish, but as soon as you start layering in those additional sorts of, I mean just in and of itself adding in retargeting, retargeting to people who not only were it within like a one mile or 10 block radius, but someone who physically walked in your store, like that’s a huge opportunity. Or knowing a recurring visits. I mean those are really great opportunities to tailor messaging and re-engage customers. But in and of itself, uh, I mean everything we do anymore in digital is, you know, you can target as much as you want.

00:03:40 Yeah. So

00:03:41 it doesn’t have a unique value proposition.

00:03:43 The, the 10 blocks. So I mean it’s down to the point where if you’re a store within a, like a strip mall, you could target just your little store. And so, I mean, it’s super precise and so maybe there are people that are coming in to that Plaza, um, you know, multiple times and whatever it may be. But I don’t, I haven’t tested it a ton, but I mean that’s where it’ll be fun.

00:04:05 Feels good as a, whether you’re on the agency side or on the client side to spend a lot of time producing nice creative and there’s value in all of that. But once you get into, I’ll call it going live and testing mode, like there’s just not time or money to just be iterating creative at, at a, at a, I’ll call it new concept level. So I’ve seen it. I think e-commerce is leading the way here about just using, uh, data feeds to populate ads, um, that dynamically produce display ads or emails or whatever. So it’s leveraging technology, um, to pinch hit, to actually make some of these advertising platforms feasible. Otherwise, you’re right. I mean there, there isn’t, they become cost prohibitive.

00:04:55 Yeah. And like what are some examples of that? The data feeds, I mean it’s so actually running into this where, uh, someone wants to do like start and stop campaigns based off of the weather and actually just found out that Google ads can tie into Z API essentially. And then you can define parameters where if, I mean that granted that starting and stopping campaigns, but how,

00:05:19 yeah, I mean if you think about any, it doesn’t matter what the business is. I mean, every business has cycles, seasonality, day of week, hour of day types of things. So let’s just take, I’ll call those naturally occurring phenomenon, either weather or backer economic. So even if he just had that data alone, your campaigns can be better. End of story. Um, like if you know your customers, uh, visit your website and convert better on Monday, I mean, what do you do with that information? Do you serve more ads or serve less? Cause they’re organically coming. I think he, those are decisions you need to make, but you gotta have the data first and then have a process in place to be able to actually leverage that. Um, you know, I like the idea of using the APIs that are out there. I think they’re really under utilized.

00:06:03 And part of it is cause there’s, there’s a knowledge gap and uh, and a communication gap between functions, right? You’ve got, and it really depends on who you’re working with from a client perspective, but you’ve got technical people who understand the API and then you’ve got creative people making ads and then you have analytics people who sit somewhere in between there and they’ve got account and project management sitting somewhere in there. So in order to make this thing work, there’s just way too many people to be quick and agile. And then there’s also just huge knowledge gaps.

00:06:38 I mean how, how do you fix that? Cause, I mean that’s as, to me, when it’s super small and everything like that, it’s, you can communicate quickly. But I mean, as you start getting working with bigger clients, there’s more moving parts like outside

00:06:54 that’s the responsibility of, you know what I mean? We’re talking about an agency here, but also on the client side. I mean, they need to, if the objective is to, let’s just say the objective is to be efficient with our creative dollars. So one of the solutions is, Hey, we’ve got a feed data or whether it’s API or other, and we can use that to cut down our creative costs so that it comes from leadership. It’s like we have an objective. But then where it typically falls apart is, I’ll call it the marketing department. They just don’t even, they’re not even aware that the, I don’t even know where the tool exists or the opportunity exists. It’s not, let’s create less ads. That’s usually the answers. Let’s do less work. And that’s not like digital is a living, breathing thing. Like if you do less work, you’re really hurting yourself.

00:07:42 So the ROI of what the, uh, what the executives trying to accomplish. You might achieve your cost savings, but you’re hurting revenue so it doesn’t pay for itself at all. So it’s a top down thing and then it’s a knowhow situation. Then, I mean it seems like, I mean we’ve known this for a long time, but there’s so many specialties in digital that not one person can do it. So I think where that leads is finding good agency partners who specialize in, you know, they’re not a one size fits all shot. They’re not a do it all shop. I think you can specialize and whether you are a one size fits all shop or not, you need to pull in the specialists. You gotta pull in the specialists. I haven’t found a single person or persons who can do strategy, project management, account management, analytics, ad management, you know, website development, front end, backend API sorts of stuff. I mean that’s, I mean even if you have five people, it’s not enough.

00:08:40 Yeah. It’s funny cause we’ve talked about that a lot. It’s like how, I mean everyone talks about having an agency or niching down or whatever it may be. It seems like companies aren’t a fan or it’s, it’s just tough from a communication perspective to be talking to five, six, seven different agencies. And it’s like, that’s, I don’t know, that’s what I think there. How do you fix that? It’s like everyone knows that you need that, but it’s like, how do you get multiple agencies working together to create some type of package?

00:09:11 You got to put your ego aside first. I mean, you know, would you rather, I mean it’s kind of played out in algae, but would you rather have a small piece of a big pie? I mean, or none? So, you know, I really think it comes down to the team of agencies just to figure out how to play in the sandbox and then do it like respect each other’s turf beyond the same page. Know that there’s enough money to go around, even if it’s a little bit of money, um, you know, scale your organization correctly to service that account and then go for the common goal. I mean that’s all there is to it. I mean, it sounds easy, but that’s like typical organizational behavior stuff. Like whether you’re one agency or um, you see, you see agencies that have it all under one roof, still have the same problems. I mean, it still has the same problems.

00:10:03 I’ve worked in an agency that does pretty much everything. And yeah, it’s, it’s, I mean the people buying the ads don’t talk to the creative people on what audiences are we targeting. And I think outside of just multiple agency, it’s just a communication thing, but it’s, I don’t know how to bridge bridge that. That’s, it’s tough. I mean, yeah, you can communicate, but it’s just a lot of moving parts.

00:10:24 Yeah. And it’s funny you mentioned communication just because there’s all sorts of tools now I’ll just pick on Slack. Like Slack is a great tool, um, internal to like teams that we use it, it works really well. And we’ve tried to have on a counselor, we have multiple agencies. We’ve tried to set up like global Slack channels. And the problem with that is, first of all, I got different time zones. Second of all, I’m used to using Slack but someone else isn’t. They get the technology, it’s just a chat platform that you can organize conversations but they use something else. So there’s a learning curve and I don’t have the notifications set up on my phone so I’m not paying attention to it. So those things usually fall apart. They think they usually fall apart. So in a day and age of communication, I think there’s extreme value in just getting on the phone, meeting face to face, having a traditional plan with action items and just marching through it like you don’t need, like the objective is not to use technology use technology. I think we get caught up in it, the digital marketers and we’ve got to have all this cool technology, like get out a pen and paper or use an Excel spreadsheet and put together a schedule and March to it.

00:11:37 So when, I mean, when it comes to the geo fencing, I mean obviously it doesn’t sound like you’re, you’re huge on it, but I mean are, do you think there’s instances where it could work? I mean,

00:11:46 Oh yeah. So I think some very, very good use cases would be, and you mentioned one of an example already, but where there is, I’ll call it retail locations or storefronts, where it’s critical to the business to understand the flow of traffic. Like just simple things. Like what times of the day are people walking into my store? Like that has huge ramifications as far as staffing. I walked into the sprint store the other day and it was, I don’t know, 11 o’clock and there was three people working there playing on their phones. Like of course I live in the suburbs, it’s 11 o’clock people. If kids are at school, parents are at work, you know, it’s, I mean, there’s no reason for three people to be there. So I mean, the challenge with this company like sprint is you’ve got to scale that sort of thing. But I mean there’s a lot of cost savings just in human resources. If you could use a little bit of technology to figure that out. A little bit of technology that’s not even talking about marketing. Yeah, that’s just, yeah, it’s just logistics. But some of these, some of these marketing or advertising companies, they’re starting to be able to figure that out. So that’s actually a business opportunity or revenue stream for the advertising companies. If they were to pivot a little bit.

00:13:00 Well, I mean we talk about a lot, just the need for realtime data. I mean just,

00:13:07 okay.

00:13:07 The client that we work with, obviously it’s like theirs.

00:13:11 Okay.

00:13:11 I think there’s huge opportunity outside of just the marketing side just to give business intelligence and

00:13:17 it’s crazy cause

00:13:19 I don’t understand why more more companies aren’t just all in on it are leveraging it. Right.

00:13:24 I think there’s, I think there’s two primary reasons. The first one is within medium to large corporations, the data is not owned by anyone department. So let’s just take an easy table. You’ve got accounting and marketing or let’s say accounting, marketing and sales. Each one of those business units has different objectives and different leadership and different incentive structures and part of their power is in keeping what they do within the walls of their business unit. So for example, the accountants don’t want marketing fiddling with the accounting numbers. The sales don’t want marketing fiddling with their sales objectives for a lot of reasons. A lot of them are practical, but a lot of it comes down to, I mentioned the word ego before, but when you’re working for a corporation versus working for yourself, I mean you work for a corporation, like you’ve got personal objectives that you need to achieve each year. Yeah, there’s like overall business objectives that you get a bonus on or not. But most of them are personal objectives. Like you need to achieve these five things in order to meet your goals. So I’m not going to share those goals with, I’m not going to allow other parts of the organization to help me with that. So that, that’s one of the things is the data’s siloed, the data’s just siloed. I mean that’s actually probably the biggest thing.

00:14:47 And that’s, I mean, that’s what made Amazon grows so quickly is, uh, I can’t remember what I’d read it on, but basically that was what helped them grow was because of that. Most people have like own their own data and don’t share across departments where they basically create an API and let it all communicate to each other, which allowed them to get business insights to make decisions better, quicker, faster, all that type of stuff. Um,

00:15:11 there’s another, another um, another example, and I talked about the knowledge gap earlier. I mean, who in your organization is not just a legit, the, the term business analyst. There’s lots of definitions of business analysts, but maybe there needs to be a new category and a lot of organizations have these people who could look at numbers and make business decisions based on them. Um, but who, who in your organization is looking across all that data and forget about the data at first, but who’s critically thinking about, um, putting data sets together that should be put together. Like you’ve got a legit, uh, department that’s production oriented, so they source raw materials and produce a product. Then you’ve got sales over here at the end of the funnel and they’re looking at like, you know, cycle, uh, sales objectives and commission structures, all these sorts of things. Someone should be putting those numbers together. And of course accounting and finance do, and they do financial reporting. But that’s at the macro level. That’s not only like a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So you know that that’s a, a rigor that needs to be put into marketing because marketing is responsible for both. They’re, they’re kind of beholden to both groups. So I would say it’s the marketing. It’s not an analytics job. It’s a business analyst job.

00:16:32 Yeah. I mean just more and more seed. Just marketing and sales and everything coming together. I mean more and more, which I mean it’s absolutely needed cause it’s how many times it’s like, Oh, we had all these leads and then the sales people are like, ah, that crap and stuff like that. But it’s figuring out how to tie them together on, okay, well why are they not doing good? What types of, what types of communication are we sending out to drive these leads? How can we position the messaging a little bit different? It’s just a huge, huge gap in, in that area. Just, I mean just tying it all together.

00:17:04 Yeah. And it, and it goes way beyond Google analytics goes way beyond Google analytics.

00:17:11 Have you used anything outside of, I mean obviously Google analytics, um, cause I mean been in Tableau before, uh, Salesforce, I mean it’s tough to find like something that just ties everything together

00:17:24 rather than namedrop cause there’s a lot of technology out there. I really think, like we said before, the objective isn’t to be a technology is not to use some cool technology. It has to start in the sounds like, you know, again kind of cliche, but you have to start with an objective. Like what’s your objective here? And then there are certain tools like power BI or some of those, like there’s just a cost of entry. It’s not just the, what does it cost a license? It’s do you have people that could actually use it and is the data going into it good. I mean that’s a, that’s a project before you even like set some objectives, dedicated team, um, you know, make sure your data is good, have an integration plan already know what you’re trying to get out of it before you go buy something. The problem is you go buy it and you check the box and say we use Salesforce. Like really it looks like a place where you throw your email addresses.

00:18:17 Yeah. And I mean not even, not even leveraging 90% of its capability. Um, which I mean it’s super powerful. I mean lead scoring, all that, all that type of stuff. But it just under utilized quite a bit.

00:18:30 I think if you were to look at, you know, you think of kinda some of those classic books of like good to great or some of those other sorts of books and looking at what companies have stood the test of time. I mean there’s some, you know, they’ve done all the research, go read the book. But I think if you were to look at some of the more successful companies within the same industry, like auto industry or whatever, the ones that are industry leaders like Southwest, you say, Oh they’re industry leaders cause they have, you know, they’re really strong in their brand, have good customer service and they’re authentic and fun and all these sorts of things. Yes, but I bet wall street cares about that. But you also need really, really good financial metrics and you don’t get really, really good financial metrics by smiling at your guests. You do. It helps. It’s part absolutely does. But my guess is they have data that’s connected and they’re making really, really smart business decisions because their data is connected

00:19:28 and it just takes a team to analyze it. But I mean outside of the analyst and analyzing it, it’s why is this happening and what actionable plans can we put together and then execute on it.

00:19:37 Really simple to say. I really think you know, the more we’re talking about this, I really think we’re chasing cool technology and I think not only agencies, but I think clients are chasing that stuff too. I don’t, I don’t know if there’s an infographic that exists about this, but it’d be fascinating to look at all the betas that Google’s rolled out over the last 15 years.

00:19:58 Oh they, I mean it’s and how many 30 a month almost it seems like. And how many of those don’t succeed?

00:20:03 Most of them. I mean we still have keyword search, you know, search console about the same, maybe some new bells and whistles. I’m moving back to geo-fencing. I think there are a couple really like low hanging fruit industries and I think it has to do with industries that are physically close in proximity to one another. Things like car dealerships, you aren’t, when you’re in the auto mall, you are shopping for a car and they’re, your competitors are on every corner. I think that’s an industry that if they’re not using it already probably work. I mean you can go high, medium, low. As far as sophistication, right? You could just serve ads, you could do retargeting or you could get more, more sophisticated and integrate all sorts of things. Another one would be hotels. And I’m in that industry because a lot of times, and you know there’s hotels group together. I mean that that seems like a logical or restaurants or downtown areas and it seems like a logical place to have restaurants and retail and hotels all be talking to those people on their devices as they’re walking around. Entertainment districts, same deal.

00:21:17 So basically people that are coming and going multiple times throughout the month or whatever it may be. How, how, how would you see the hotel one working just cause it’s

00:21:26 okay,

00:21:26 go stay at a hotel. Probably not going to come back or

00:21:29 there there’s, you know, hotels kind of thrive on a couple of things. One is the business traveler. Yeah. You’re not going to get the business. It depends on the hotel. You’re not going to get the business traveler because they usually book either someone books it for them or they book through a corporate account and they have an account with Hyatt or whatever. So you’re not going to get that. The other one is, uh, the seasonal, uh, family or couple or individual visitor to like take Denver for example. They’ve got various festivals downtown at certain times of the year or whatever, jazz festivals and people come in from out of town. Um, so really the opportunity there, most people book hotels in advance through portals or orbits or whatever like that, but I think the real opportunity there is to cross sell our partners, get people to come and take food and beverage, which is high margin, um, sell and shows, you know, partnerships and all those sorts of things. I think it’s to activate customers when they’re physically there. It makes sense. Not the business traveler though. I mean, you could do the business travel, but usually, or their agenda set, they’ve got this conference over here. It’s book their cars, booked, their hotels, booked, their flights booked. They’re almost kind of off the table. I’m sure we could come up with some way.

00:22:37 Yeah. With the, uh, I mean what’s super interesting is what they have now is like conversion zone. And so, I mean, not only can you target people that have been to a certain location, you can put a fence over your own location. I mean it’s

00:22:53 okay.

00:22:53 Do you see the value in that? Do you think it’s accurate?

00:22:55 If it needs to be super accurate, it’s better than the information if you don’t have it. I mean, I’m even thinking about, I mean there’s, you know, take websites for example, if you take website as a digital proxy for a physical location, right? And I mean there’s heat maps, scroll maps, all that sort of stuff. It’s kind of fundamentally the same. My issue with all that stuff is it just gets under utilized. It just gets under utilize all the data that we have gets under utilized. So if you have a conversion zone around something like that. Sweet. So I put that in front of you on a monthly basis. Like I might even say, Hey, here’s your conversion zone. Here’s the ads that are converting best in the proximity and stuff. So what, so what, what are you gonna do about it? Well, we’re out of budget for creative. Uh,

00:23:44 that’s, that’s always the barrier. Like, well, let’s shift more money here.

00:23:47 Yeah. Or maybe the recommendation is, okay, so we’ve got this pool of money and let’s say we’ve got 30% in search, 30% in display at 30% in geo-fencing, and we see this working. Then you’ve got to compare it against the other two. And it’s like, well, the cost per acquisition is not quite as good as these other channels. But then the conversation should be like, well, where in the funnel is this advertising supposed to be helping people? And so any, anyway, I think the data’s really good. I think we have that sort of visualization and I think it’s panned out on websites, but I just don’t think we use, marketers don’t use the data enough. And then businesses who the marketers work for don’t have budget or time or knowhow or interest in doing anything with the data.

00:24:31 Yeah, no, it’d be fun because, uh, I mean get the foot weekly foot traffic. And so as we get it going, it’ll be fun to, to watch and see how it impacts sales. Yeah. Huge opportunity. I mean,

00:24:46 I can do to, I don’t like using attribution because it gets misused all the time and misunderstood. But anything we can do to get closer to understanding marketing spend as it ties to the final objective of the business, be it sales or whatever. I mean, that’s worth its weight in gold. It’s worth its weight in gold. I mean, it seems like everyone’s been kind of going the CRM route and connecting data, you know, marketing to sales, data to point of sale and that’s good and that’s cool. Um, it requires a lot of infrastructure and tools and staff to maintain all that stuff and connecting data, which we already talked about. It’s challenging. Um, so I, I like it. I liked you offensing from the perspective of it being able to maybe, you know, be a one stop shop, jump over the CRM. Right. To and from advertising to sale.

00:25:35 Yeah. Yeah. Cause, I mean even Facebook’s jumping in on that now they have that, uh, literally campaigns that optimized towards foot traffic. If you have a quote unquote store. Um, yeah, no, I think there’s huge opportunity to just in the, one of the links I sent over, it had, uh, the geo-fencing marketing arena. I supposed to like triple in revenue in the next like, like an ad spend in the next, I think it’s four years. And so it’s, uh, people are investing a lot more into it. It’s,

00:26:04 yeah. I wonder, I just kind of wonder about those things. Is, is the availability of technology leading that? Is the demand from customers or marketers leading that or is there practical value in leading that? Um, and the other thing too is I’ve noticed, especially with how, uh, media companies, uh, traditional media companies are evolving. It’d be more digital companies. Uh, there are a plethora of geo-fencing and related technology out there that are being sold, um, by the same companies that used to sell TV to the same companies that buy traditional. So I’m wondering how much of that is real new growth in media dollars versus just transferring dollars from one source to the other?

00:26:53 Well, I mean, yeah, that’s the, how much is leaving traditional and going into to digital, which actually, I mean that’s, you bring up a good point. The whole connected TV and all that type of stuff. It’s a, I mean, it’s growing quickly, but going geo fence and when they, it’s interesting is, I mean we’ve mentioned it before, the blip, um, billboards, um, I mean still want to test this where, I mean this is where you can have the want to hear your thoughts on what attribution and how it gets misused is, but I mean, for example, having a billboard and then doing a geo fence around that billboard so that the people that are driving down the freeway that see the billboard are now in your geo-fence and now you can target them across. Uh, I mean with banner ads and stuff like that. But there are some companies that can take the geo fencing and actually start serving TV ads. I mean, it’s,

00:27:40 it’s crazy. Yeah. I mean,

00:27:43 well, I mean, it’s tough with the messaging. I mean, you can create such an awesome story. I mean, knowing that they drove by it, they’re going to see the ad and then you can hit them on their mobile device if they’re in a certain area. And then whenever they get home showing out on TV. I mean, telling a story from each, each touch point. I think there’s so much power in there. But going back to your point on the, the what makes it tough is the budget. I mean, to create all the contests.

00:28:10 I think that’s, you know, it’s easy to say, Oh that’s creative problem or Oh, that’s the brand agency’s problem row. That’s the, you know, the budget by, I think that’s our challenge. That’s a challenge that we need to figure out. I mean, it’s one thing to put together a strategy of what a geo-fencing advertising platform can do. I think that’s not where the plan needs to stop. I think, I mean, I, there’s plenty of plans, strategic plans and you know, campaign plans that show a tactic, you know, strategy, tactic, budget, timeline. That’s cool. But that doesn’t mean it works. It doesn’t mean it’s feasible. It doesn’t mean, and I, I kind of say, you know, what’s the activation team or activation plan? So yeah, we have a timeline, but how are you actually going to do that? How do you say there’s a line item for reporting and optimization and you even might even say like, here’s what we’re going to optimize against, but do you actually have dollars associated to it? Do you actually have a team associated to it? Have you set up, you know, any process and procedure to like do your weekly, monthly, quarterly optimizations? Um, so I think that’s a challenge that we have to figure out. Like why is creative a barrier? I think creative is a barrier because of the old paradigm of how we work. Yeah, I agree. I don’t think that, you know, if there’s good technology out there and it produces ROI, then we need to figure it out.

00:29:33 I mean? And what are your thoughts on, uh, cause I mean it’s all labor hours essentially and all that, but what the whole model changes to performance based revenue sharing, that type of stuff. I know that’s, I mean scary for some companies and stuff like that, but I think that’s more of a partnership where now if the agency or whoever may be has more skin in the game and making more, then it’s like, Hey, this what it costs you 10 grand to do this video, 15 grand, whatever it is. And you know, we’ll do it at cost and all that. We can get 10 of them now, whatever it may be. But because you have that many different variables running, you’re going to produce results more, which then is going to pay pay back. And I, I don’t know,

00:30:15 I, uh,

00:30:17 I just think the whole model just needs to change somehow.

00:30:20 Welcome any business that I would want to go performance-based. And it has little to do with being

00:30:27 okay.

00:30:28 You know, proud of capabilities. It’s just because that, that’s, I don’t know, Fair’s not the right word that’s seems right. Yeah. Like no one, no business ever comes to you and just their objective is do whatever you want. Like no objective has ever been. Yeah. They always have an objective sell more, get more. I mean there’s something. So why are we held accountable for that? I don’t know. I mean, when I was in school, my parents held me accountable to grades when I was on a team. Coach held me accountable to performance. Sales teams are commissioned based on their performance. You know, I, I don’t understand, you know, uh, production companies, they’re compensated based on like throughput and cycle time and all these sorts of things. Like why does marketing get like a free pass? I don’t understand. I’ve never understood that.

00:31:14 Yeah. Well I mean just most agencies, whenever it’s running ads and stuff like that, it’s percentage of the overall budget. But it’s like, I just think overall there’s a whole different way to work together. And I mean it’s, it’s going back to the reporting. Most companies don’t like to have a line item for reporting, but it’s like that’s what’s needed to push performance is so it’s like if you’re performance based working together, that that takes all of those line items and everything out of it because it’s, that’s what needs to be done to push that performance. You know what I mean? It takes,

00:31:44 here’s what I’m like, I don’t know. It’s not great. But anyway, here’s I think one of the primary reasons why performance-based us stuff doesn’t work. This isn’t the right equation, but when most people look at that, that’s scary. It’s just an equation we learned. You know? Again, it’s not the equation for figuring out performance based marketing. It’s math. People are scared of math. Yeah. Math and numbers, math and numbers. You see this and then three or four more of these in a contract. You’ve lost him here. You’ve lost him here.

00:32:30 It’s just, is this just something made up or this is just something made up. Okay. I’m trying to go straight. People are scared. The math,

00:32:37 not everyone. Not all clients. Not all agencies. Not all businesses are scared of math. There’s plenty of math involved in a lot of contracts, but in marketing oriented contracts, you may be buying impressions, you may have a budget you need to spend in a certain advertising channel with some loose expectations around industry benchmarks of conversion rate or click through rate or something like that. You throw this performance based sort of stuff at someone. I’ve seen it happen a lot of times. It just, it gets too complicated too fast and people don’t know what to do with it. Even when you do a, even when you just do a conversion funnel and do percentages like this normal conversion puddle, we can work it this way. Most people understand this number. Try working it back that way. I mean that’s going back to attribution and everything like that. I mean, just the simple, the simple act of going backwards. Just explaining. If you have this and you have this, you can get this.

00:33:49 Anyway. There’s a, I just sound a fear of math. It’s a lack of understanding of math and you can see that in kind of the transition that’s happened in upper management and marketing over the last decade. You know, the new crop is, has been, has grown up with digital and digital is generally more measurable than traditional. So numbers aren’t as scary. So it’s just literally just a shift in decision decision makers then and yeah. Yeah. So to wrap this up, it might be, it might offend some people about being scared about math, but try putting a complex performance based contract in front of somebody and it’s not about them desiring to compensate you based on the performance. It’s about the sale, the sales process and the measurement of that process. And then being comfortable with it. Does it just take, I mean, yeah, I guess how do you defeat that?

00:34:49 Just wait for, well that’s again our challenge. I mean you can make it, you can make it more simple. They don’t need to see all the math. You could just say you pay $10,000 you get a hundred leads, whatever it is, you can make it simpler. Gotcha. I think it behooves, you know, especially if you’re talking to, depending on the type of CEO, definitely a CFO and a lot of times the COO, they’re more numbers oriented. You need to show him the math CEOs, CMOs, depending on the CMO, what their interest in numbers is, they might understand it not being offensive. I mean SEO is generally visionary, you know, CMO depends on their background. They might really, really be analytically driven or not. Um, it just depends on your audience. The CFO probably wants to see it mean this way. Makes

00:35:38 sense. Cause I mean you start talking about conversion rate optimization, that’s, I mean there’s so many different line items for that where you got, there’s many different things to test and then that that could quickly add up in terms of just the cost. And so doing something like this allows for more things to be done that actually drive revenue, sales, all that type of stuff.

00:35:57 Yeah. It takes, it takes, I mean it, it takes trust on the client’s behalf and it takes faith on the agency faith in your team, on the agency side. But again, how do you build that trust and how do you have the faith in your team if you’re not trying it? Yeah. I mean, why would you run a team that isn’t accountable to their performance? Yeah. I mean seriously it seems like our accountability is delivering something on time. Yeah. And, and there’s some quality coefficients. There’s some quality coefficients of like it’s got to be good. It’s gotta meet certain standards. Or if, you know, if someone gives you a budget of 10,000 guys, spend 10,000 did you spend 10,000? Yeah, we spend 10,000 but that’s the goal. Yeah. Produce something on time or spend a budget. And that’s not like, yeah, it’s not in any business plan. Yeah.

00:36:53 No, it’s interesting cause I mean it’ll go more towards this as, as time goes on I feel, I think it should.

00:37:02 Yeah. Because it just makes sense. Yeah. But going back to the attribution stuff, so why do you think people, uh, it’s funny cause it’s, I had this conversation all the time. I mean at an agency at one point, uh, I had had a same conversation where it’s like, what was it four years ago where it was like, all right, well the person running search, I mean it was looking at last click. And I’m like, well why can’t we have like multiple attribution models depending on the channel. Like if we can all agree that display or video is top of funnel, why don’t we count first click first impression or whatever. And they’re just like, Oh no, you can’t do that. And it’s, it’s crazy. So it’s, it’s, I don’t know what are the,

00:37:42 my biggest gripe with attribution right now is it started off the word attribution was synonymous with multitouch attribution. So, so customer journey as well. Customer journey. Yeah, we could call it that for now. It by definition was it kind of, I’ll call it a sophisticated term for trying to understand the impact of different media types along some form of journey. And then somehow in the last couple of [inaudible] years, attribution has really turned into this word used for last click. And that just, it doesn’t drive me nuts cause I understand what it is, but the industry thinks and clients think you use the word attribution that it’s anything different than what we’ve been doing all along. So as an industry, as a marketing industry, it’d be really nice to what attribution, what are we talking about here? Are you trying to understand customer journey metrics or are you just trying to understand what’s the last thing people did?

00:38:44 Yeah, well cause I think those are two different thing. One is customer journey. What are all the things they did to convert? But then I, to me attribution is how did a channel or an add attribute to the conversion that doesn’t, to me it’s first click or or assisted or last click, where does it start? The customer journey, does it help assist them to the end? And then there’s the end. And so I mean going back to what we’ve talked about before on reporting, it’d be sweet if a can figure out a way to kind of show that where this might be first click. So what our first, first touch point, whatever you want to call it. So then we report on first touch conversions rather than the last click. And cause, I mean you’ll quickly get into conversations around, well this isn’t, this isn’t converting and this isn’t working, let’s cut it, but it’s actually starting like 90% of the convert. You know what I mean? And uh, but how do you report on that? Um, I guess and have that conversation.

00:39:39 So I call it an end around, and maybe it’s a crawl, walk run might be a better way of looking at it. But the first thing I placed, I think you need to start as a conversation with the client, understanding their objectives and really having a keep talking about it until, I mean, a lot of marketers want to do branding, want to do lead generation, want to do lead nurturing, want to do conversion all at the same time that the equal weight. But we all know that’s not practical. Well, I’d like to think we all know that’s not practical. Well get, get people clients to a point where they actually understand that that’s step one. Then once you understand that, let’s just be real simple. So you had one objective for the year, like literally, let’s do this, draw it out. Here we go. Yeah, that conversion funnel. Let’s make a simple one. What do you want to do? Do you want to be 100% here and 0% here? This is closer to the sale.

00:40:53 I saying my question, what are the different students? And this is more awareness.

00:40:56 Yeah, just call this awareness. This is super easy funnel, wellness, and sale. So they’re going to say, well, certainly not. We need to be more here. Keep working down the percentages until they get comfortable. So let’s just say we want to be 50 50 this shouldn’t take very long at all. This shouldn’t take very long at all. The next step is,

00:41:19 okay,

00:41:23 what channels do awareness? Let’s just say display.

00:41:27 Cool.

00:41:29 And let’s just say keyword search. Okay, sweet. So now we can actually achieve 50% and 50% okay, what’s your budget? $100,000 okay. $50,000 all right, $50,000 what’s your metric? CTR, conversion rate, whatever. Okay. When the report comes out, there’s no confusion. Display does not have CVR next to it.

00:42:11 Yeah, so it’s reporting on the different like, yeah, cause I mean that’s, that’s what you typically see is is yeah. I mean everyone knows that CTR and all that is the top of funnel, but whenever the report comes out it’s here’s how many conversions, here’s our cost per lead and all that and it’s, it’s going back to just the reporting and data and stuff like that. It’s properly tying the metrics too

00:42:35 to what is being achieved and we understand this as marketers are doing a poor job at communicating it to clients.

00:42:44 Even today I was presenting reports and in the midst of a monthly reporting presentation I had to verbally say for the hundredth time that display by definition based on your objectives does not yield conversion. It’s a top of the funnel brand awareness thing. We shouldn’t, we should expect a high CPA for it. And it had a site high CPA relative to things like keyword search. Well of course it did that you were using it exactly for what it was intended for. So why do we need to say that? Just put it in the report, then it avoids all that conversation confusion. We look at this stuff every day. Clients look at it and maybe once a month or maybe biweekly. So why do we need to keep having this conversation to confuse them?

00:43:33 So it’s just a matter of uh, uh,

00:43:35 just people assuming

00:43:38 attribution is last click [inaudible] attribution,

00:43:45 your example of like blip, billboards and geo fencing around that. And then retargeting with connected TV and all that. That stuff is so sweet. Like you and I have talked about it a lot and it would be so sweet. The problem is how much are you willing to invest in? I mean, first of all, again, we’ve talked about the creative, just the creative alone. And then the real value in digital is not just figuring out what works for different audiences and touching them in all different places. Um, but being able to measure it, not demise it. So you create this bundle of creative, we created for one segment, we have 10 segments. All right? So let’s say you multiply that times 10 but maybe there’s efficiencies. So you only multiply it by five cause you figured out a template. Okay. Then one, well after two weeks we found some statistically significant data that says we should change three of the 10 things. Yeah. Then what? Oh well it takes six weeks to get our creative process done and we’ve got to go find more money and then we get it back into market. And by then, you know, I mean the opportunity is gone, the campaigns over or the seasons change or whatever. So I love all that as a marketer and as a digital guy, but practically speaking, unless you’re like a Geico or something like that, I just, I just don’t see how you can, how it maps out feasibly from a budget perspective,

00:45:16 I think it just needs to be performance based because it’s like

00:45:21 if you, if you invest the time and energy to turn it around that quickly and I have to wait on the client and be like, eh, you know what? I don’t know. I’ll give you an answer in a week and then okay, let’s go. It’s just, that’s just too long. I mean it’s the cost of not getting to market that much quicker, but if you know that you can turn around in a couple of days, but by doing that you’re going to drive a lot more sales and all that because you’re just on top of the real time data, you’re going to be paid back, which is going to more than pay for the time to pay your team to do it. And I think that’s, I think changing the model of how agencies and companies work together. I think that’s where there’s going to be a ton of opportunity.

00:45:55 I think there’s a, there’s like a hybrid, you know, we kind of put the challenge out there in a different conversation about it’s our problem to fix. Um, the, I’ll call it the Canadian creative conundrum, you know, so you’ve got companies that and technology and then you’ve got agencies that have creative and maybe a different company money managing advertising. So I think it’d be a fascinating idea for an advertising technology company and some do this to create, um, creative tools and platforms and suites of assets that advertisers can tap in, tap into and not just, you know, boring looking templates. I mean, I have a little bit of a white glove customization thing, but again, that’s the business, the technology companies job is to figure out how to make it cool looking and financially feasible. But I think there’s a, there might be a sweet spot for, like you mentioned propelling or blip. It’s like I don’t have a whole creative services group. Maybe you outsource all of that, but have some tools that companies can actually realize the benefit of this stuff because without that it’s, the value proposition is pretty low and it does, it does prevent the performance based situation because you don’t even go there. You don’t even go down that road because it’s just cost prohibitive.

00:47:13 Yeah. I mean an example is, I mean Colton was making banner ads and found this software where essentially you can throw in copying an image and spits out an HTML five ad within seconds. Literally took 10 minutes to make the hole a seven 28 or seven 20 by 90 to like 10 different sizes. Only took like five minutes. And so it’s like how long would it take for a designer to do that where maybe you have, you have someone that comes up with a template. That’s where the creative juices get flowing, but then once, once it’s created, you can just run through the software and I mean I’ve seen upwards of thousand bucks for a set of HTML five ads, but you know, being get it done.

00:47:58 Yeah, it kind kinda makes me think of Google responsive ads. Yeah. I mean they, they’re there, they’re kind of doing what I said is that hybrid model. But the, I mean I’ve had this conversation, a lot of the tug of war with between, I’ll just call it creative and digital where like digital’s looking at performance metrics and it’s like those Google responsive ads are killing it. But the creative brand agency is like, yes, I understand that. I know our goal is lead generation but they don’t look good because they have different objectives. They got a brand standards and they need to have the voice and the look and the feel and they spent all this money on photo shoots and all this sort of stuff. So now that I’m saying it, the issue is the client has set the wrong objectives and incentives. They should have the same objective, same incentives for everyone doing the work.

00:48:47 Yeah. I mean yeah cause it’s, Google has had that for awhile. Not so much responsive but a way where you can just an auto create a tool. Literally it works better. I mean, I in the last six years been looking at the day then it’s, it’s, it always works better than

00:49:03 I am kind of curious if their stuff is always going to work better if you look at their data.

00:49:08 Yeah. Well, I mean I’m just Google analytics and all that type of stuff. I mean, analytics, was it Google analytics, Google analytics. But I mean if you have UTMs on a traditional banner ad and a responsive ad and all that, um, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting, but I think to your point, technology is what’s going to help bring that barrier of cost down. Whether you have buy in from everyone where you want to take that route or whatever it may be. But I think bringing in more technology will help bring down that cost quite a bit because it’s saw a quote the other day and it goes, was like marketing has gone from telling one story to millions to where we need to be telling millions of stories to one person. And it’s like, yeah, but how do you, from an economics perspective, how do you do that? I mean grant, you’re not gonna create a million stories for one person, but the thought is there, it’s more tailored content, more customized content, but how, how can you leverage technology to do that while still,

00:50:05 so that whole, this is kind of like a cousin of my thoughts on attribution. It seems a bit romantic to me to think about, you know, I know one-to-one marketing has its place and its value and it’s a phrase that’s been around for a long time and now digital is kind of taking its own spin on it. It kind of is akin to having a, about when you’re doing like keyword research for SEO, do you want to find that one long tail keyword that you might get two clicks and one conversion or sale or would you rather go big volume? Well here, here’s the reality of it is what are your business objectives? Do you need to sell? You know, is it worthwhile to your business? Maybe you’re like a consulting firm and you just need two clients a year. Yeah. So you might like what, what good is it to go high volume?

00:50:58 Like you don’t need to appeal to the masses, you’re going to get junk. You don’t have a call center. Like you just want those two highly qualified people. So obviously you need to find different channels, but then it’s a one to one sort of situation, a lot of content development, all that sort of stuff. But [inaudible] in most cases you need volume and quality and you got to figure out that balance. You got to figure out that balance, but you can’t have one or the other. And then it’s super romantic again to have one-to-one marketing and more than just one message to one person have 15 different messages to one person across multiple different types of media channels and all that sort of stuff. Awesome. I’ve seen it in pitches, I’ve made those pitches. It looks really, really cool on paper. I still have some of those pitches from a decade ago,

00:51:49 but it to execute on it and yeah,

00:51:51 that’s tough. Yeah. Now for certain businesses, you know, you know we’ve mentioned sprint, we mentioned Geico, depending on the size of the business and the different industries they’re in. And, I mean, let’s leave Amazon, Apple and Facebook off the table and Google off the table because you know, they have the wherewithal to do whatever they want and they’re innovative and have the culture to do whatever they want. But you know, okay, call it medium and large size businesses, not so much. Certainly small companies, they no go, no way. I love the idea as a marketer, again, romantic now strategically sir, we can carry messages and call to actions and pictures and the right channels at the right stages of the funnel and the right metrics and all this sort of stuff. We can go through that routine,

00:52:39 going back to the communication, wants to talk created and then handed it off to add managers and reporting and all that. Tying it all together. Yep.

00:52:47 Yeah. So where do thoughts on, uh, just voice in general, like brand voice? So

00:52:56 no, like Amazon. Alexa. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, it’s come up from past conversations just with the client, but uh, I’m not close to that and I’ve been wanting to ask them,

00:53:05 uh, there, there was this one and I’ve seen it a bunch. There’s, there’s various forms of it called like the hype cycle and it’s no different than a product adoption curve. I’ll draw that and to get a native California. Yeah, here we go. It looks, you know, product life cycle introduction, maturity, extinction. But you can look at it not just for products but for industries. Let’s take voice. So voice, this would be like widely adopted, you know, first of all, I think we need to figure out like as marketers, what is it? Is it advertising channel? Is it a content marketing? What is it? Yeah, I don’t think that’s been defined yet. No, I don’t think it’s been defined yet. So I would put it like from a marketing perspective, from a technology and product perspective, it’s like expense, exponential growth. It’s like kind of in here. But from a marketing perspective, I don’t know if it’s at the beginning, but it’s not much further past the beginning. Like it hasn’t hit its exponential growth curve. It just hasn’t, it hasn’t gotten there yet.

00:54:17 So, yeah, if the consumption or the usage is over here and marketing is over here, is it just a matter of marketers haven’t tried to figure it out or, so

00:54:26 marketing of the products and the use of the products from a consumer perspective, like take Alexa, people are buying Alexa the product, there’s a lot of competition to Alexa. People are starting to use it like not that it’s worthwhile, but what’s the question of the day? Like that’s not adding value to my life really, or whatever. So marketing of the product is in the exponential curve, but marketers using it to achieve other objectives. Uh, that hasn’t happened yet. And I think a lot of it is, um, I think, I think it’s two things. One is companies are, they don’t set aside money to do R. and. D, if you’re like Intel or Ford motor company or whatever, you have an R and D budget. You’re developing electric cars, you’re developing the microchip at the future. You have to, or you’re, you’re going to die. But most other companies and most other industries, how many of you have a technology R and D budget? Not, not a, not an it, a marketing technology, R and D budget or an advertising R and D button. Not many. So what’s going to fuel marketing’s use of this? There needs to be new entrance into the technology. There needs to be new technology companies that have the purpose of developing marketing tools for Alexa or voice.

00:55:47 Yeah, I mean I, to me I take it back to like phones. I mean the first app that was I think developed was literally, it looks like you have beer and then it looks like you’re tugging it. But as more companies developed apps that actually were for everyday use and then you got more consumption rather than, Oh look at this, this is cool. Like then I think that’s where, all right, well more attention is there. And I think, yeah, you’re right. That’s, it’s just, it’s a matter of this maybe moving up a bit more so that people are using it for more than just,

00:56:15 well I shouldn’t have the day. So there’s a gap and this is maybe simplifying it, but got a tech gap. And then probably the bigger one is you have a customer utility gap, customer utility being how valuable is it? Gotcha. Not just how valuable is your day of life, but is that a place where I am going to effectively consume advertising?

00:56:50 Yeah. Well I mean yeah, cause at first it’s actually using apps or your mobile phone. Once these came out as a couple times a day, but now it’s like people are on them 300 times a day almost. And so that’s, I think, yeah, as, as there’s more uses for voice. That’s where, when people are using and engaging in more, I think it’s kind of a shiny new thing now, but as it gets adopted more and then companies start making things for it and building upon it, I think that’s where,

00:57:15 I mean, as a, as a society in America, uh, I can’t speak to other countries. Um, you know, it’s in our cars. Yeah. It’s in our houses. Um, I don’t know how it’s used in workplace, like manufacturing or anything like that. Not sure if there’s a use case for it, but there’s certainly more adoption. Um, again, I’m not sure even about the products themselves. Like I, I’m sure there’s stats somewhere, but like what, what’s the utilization of the products themselves? Cause without the utilization of the product, it doesn’t make sense for advertisers to be there. Yeah. What do you mean utilization of the product? Like am I using, like is there a stat that says what’s Alexa used for? I’m sure there are stats. Like, like I said, I used the joke of like, what’s the question of the day? That’s the utility of that is very, very small. Or Alexa set my alarm for 5:00 AM like, that’s cool cause it’s a nice alarm clock but I already have an alarm clock, I got one on my phone, on my watch, on my desk. I’m like, that’s not gonna, that’s not gonna move this move marketing, uh, adoption up the,

00:58:24 yeah. And I think as people get closer over here and started using it more, there’s going to be more apps or skills or whatever it may be built upon that. And then as people, I mean, yeah, like you got QuickBooks on your phone, you got, I mean there as there are more utility uses for it I think. Yeah. To your point, that’s when,

00:58:42 yeah. So, okay, so the challenge, you mentioned skills. I was out looking for skills of a particular industry to present a business case, um, to a client. And I was shocked first of all by how few companies were developing skills, sir. They’re one off developers, kind of like the app culture. Like you know, you’re chugging a beer example. Like there’s all sorts of quality of apps, uh, first. So it’s like kinda like a one man shop sort of industry. And then the company there for the skilled developers who had legitimate companies, I’ll call it, with more than two people. And this isn’t [inaudible]. I’m sure there are sophisticated companies developing skills. There are. But I was shocked by just looking at their websites. You know, the brand of a website says a lot about the company. I mean, they were under, they were very small companies.

00:59:37 Not a lot of sophistication, purely tech because their brand presence didn’t look good and just looking at their websites, it tells me that that industry is not there yet. Yeah, it’s just not there. And then the other thing too, if you think about who’s making a voice tools, there’s some of the bigger advertisers, Amazon, third biggest advertiser, Facebook, Google, I mean they’re going to monetize that at some point. Right now they’re probably just collecting data and developing technology and seeing how people are using it. They’re going to monetize it at some point, you know it’s not going to be long and there might already be there. You know when you can buy ads on.

01:00:17 Well that’s, and that’s, that’s where I go is like as people use them more and start shopping, Hey Alexa, I need toothpaste. Like what’s going to be the toothpaste that shows up or is it going to be the one that you always pick? I think there’s going to be a lot of opportunity just on that, that side of things where whenever you ask the question, what’s, give me the first answer that shows up. And it’s not like search where now you have 10, 15 different selections. It’s literally what Amazon or Google tells you. And so it’s an interesting to see

01:00:45 and that actually fixes some of the creative gaps that we were talking about earlier. Um, you know, from an AI perspective, you can dynamically produce sentences based on queries. Yeah. Natural language stuff and AI. I mean it’s, it’s out there. It’s there. So if you’re searching for verbally searching for toothpaste or detergent or Alexis or Nike shoes, you don’t have to create new creative, you don’t have to just say, we’ve got it. Yeah. Now granted it would send you to a different destination, but I mean think that that like removes that whole barrier we were talking about creative. Yeah. It’s gone. Yeah. Just how dynamic search ads, dynamic search, dynamic keyword insertion. Think about dynamic keyword searching for voice. Yeah,

01:01:37 very true. I mean going back to uh, there not being a lotta utility for this. I mean I know we mentioned it before, it would be so cool cause literally the, the natural language, I can’t remember what company it was, but can tie into Google analytics. I mean, and then you can tie that into Google assistant. I mean, how cool would it be to get companies, I can literally say, how were my sales from Facebook last week? Or how are my leads or phone call clicks or whatever it may be. You can say things and then, I mean, how much time would that save an agency? Which then you can reduce that line item and then all of a sudden you have more efficiencies on both ends where you’re not spending time on reporting all that type of stuff. But I think there’s a lot opportunity in creating the utility.

01:02:20 I mean, as you mentioned that the companies that are out there now, but there’s not a whole lot. And so I think, yeah, there’s a lot of opportunity in that. I mean something simple as we’ve talked about companies having daily meetings or whatever it may be and, and it takes a lot of time. That’s a lot of labor hours. What if the head person, the person leading could just say it into Alexa and then all sudden you have a Alexa brief for everyone. As long as they listen to it once a day, people then consume it on their own time. He might not have people that listen or whatever it may be, which that’s a different thing, but all of a sudden you could use this Alexa or voice to run those daily meetings, which took, I mean X amount of hours times everyone. I mean that’s, that’s it’s a lot.

01:03:03 Yeah. I’m thinking about, you know, those of you that are in the development world, you know, your daily stand up right on how projects are flowing through the system. I mean there’s value in physically standing up and huddling as a team and walking through and like working on, you know, what’s in progress, what’s finished, what’s on deck, that sort of stuff. But I mean there’s lots of use cases. I mean, you could, instead of typing it, you could say it instead of listening, you know, to physical people in their ramblings. You could get it read to you. I mean, we’re used to, right now we’re, we see things on screens and we type things into screens. And our only talking is physically sitting in a meeting room, being on a phone. And that’s kind of where it stops. So we’re, we’re kind of, because we, cause we’re virtual teams now and we work all around the world. I mean, we all know this, there’s less physical communication than there used to be. So we’re reintroducing using one of our files.

01:04:05 Well if our census, you know, I mean yep. Our ears. Yeah. No, it’s funny. I, I cannot wait until that shifts where people aren’t emailing anymore. I’m a, I mean you’ve seen on the, the videos that, that you can do. I love that. Cause it’s like you can just communicate so much more. There’s no loss in translation. You can show people what you’re talking about. I mean, how much back and forth is there? Cause, I mean, and I’m not short with my words. And so it’s like long, long emails and then it’s just like there’s so much back and forth, just so much wasted time that I think voice and then video using technology to not have to have cameras and all that to produce it. I think, yeah, it’ll just create a lot of efficiencies. And as that happens and that makes for more of a utility on those devices, which then I think that’s where,

01:04:48 and the other thing too about, and this is, you know, we all know this, but this getting from point a to B, let’s just say it used to take X years, it’s going to take, you know, X minus one years now or X minus two years. It’s going to happen faster. It’s gonna happen faster. So whatever it is, I would like to think if I was investing some R and D money, I would put some R and D money behind voice. And I think that will be, if you’re thinking about an agency putting money behind voice, I think if you were savvy enough, I think you would be not just be thinking about how you could sell it as a service, but what products could you make as offerings going back to you in a reporting suite? Just so make some tools. Then you’ve diversified your company, you offer products and service, you have safety and the ups and downs of markets. I mean, build some products

01:06:17 [inaudible] [inaudible].

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