Not generating the revenue you want? Try creative more effective marketing messaging. | Rise Grind Repeat 073


Think of all the time you spent developing your product. Now think of how much time you’ve spent polishing how you present it. Ashley Bright’s message is simple: communication mistakes are costing you money. Effective marketing messaging makes you money.

He’s called The Message Fixer, and the string of Fortune 500 clients he’s worked with for two decades can tell you why. Ashley says your message, more than your product or service, determines your results, and he shares some fundamental techniques and mindsets for more effective marketing messaging so you can “get the money you need to succeed.” Listen to Ashley’s message, because what you don’t know may be hurting you.


Rise Grind Repeat Podcast
powered by EIC Agency


Hosted by Dustin Trout
Produced by Andrei Gardiola

effective marketing messaging


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| Rise Grind Repeat 073 |


On today’s episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat, we talked to Ashley from the Message Fixer, talking about how to communicate better when it comes to pitching your ideas. Let’s dive right in. Ashley, thank you so much for joining on an episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat. As we’re talking a little bit earlier, I you know, I’m really excited for this. Because when it comes to messaging, I think there’s a lot that goes, you know, there’s a lot of oversight on really focusing on how to hone in your messaging, how to communicate better. And at the end of the day, we’re all about marketing, that’s all marketing is, is having communication, it’s using data to see what someone’s responding to you with and how you communicate back, and really how you sell your products or services. But before we dive in, too deep into that, I’d love to learn more about your background. I mean, worked with fortune 500 companies, you got tons of content that’s on your website. I mean, how did you all get started? And in the communication side of things and messaging?


Sure, sure. So I’ve always been fascinated by storytelling. I loved film as a kid. And in high school, I discovered commercials at the time, you know, in the mid 90s, there was a lot of arcs at midnight, the sky was the 80s What am I talking about. And there was a lot of like those commercial, you know, like the end of the year showcases of commercials, and I kept these little, you know, videotapes, and I just loved it. And so I went to went to college, I studied advertising, I studied graphic design, I studied all sort of forms of communication, I thought I was going to be a first of all a commercial director and then get into film, that was kind of my, my vision of it. And, and while I was in college, the internet happens. And I was kind of like, Oh my god, this is this is super cool. And so I ended up joining and working in ad agencies and design firms, specifically in the digital space. And, you know, was working with UX experts and programmers were developing these whole online platforms. And it was a lot of fun. And I got into the creative director when art, you know, designer, art director and creative director and creative director was sort of like the pinnacle, I thought, that’s what I wanted to do. And I got there and you know, loved aspects of it, I loved the, you know, leading the team and generating the ideas and pitching, pitching the ideas to the fortune 500, the Microsoft, Targets, Amazon, etc. And, you know, enjoyed that. But what I started seeing more and more was that there were a lot of people I worked with, you know, people on my team, as well as clients and people that were really smart, who just simply couldn’t, couldn’t communicate, they couldn’t share an idea. And I knew they were smart people and I hated the the notion that their ideas, were not going to go anywhere. And so that kind of planted a seed early on for me about, you know, the need for this. And, and so then in 2012, we, the family and I, we were living up in Seattle for 15 years, and we decided, you know what, I think it’s time for a change. And we bailed on Seattle moved to Arizona, and I had some time to think. And that was when this notion of like helping people communicate kind of landed on me, and I started pursuing it. And, and that was kind of where it started. And now I think I’ve veered away from answering your question.


No, that’s awesome. In the context is a great segue into current time. But no, I mean, that’s great. I mean, what was it? Like when the aha moment on the internet, when he saw the value in it? I mean, it’s a you’re right there, like the prime age, I mean, young enough to be having an open mind to new technology and all that. I mean, were you hopping on a blog or something like that? or Where did the epiphany happen?


Um, it was a good question. Good question. I mean, I think I was started, I’ve said this to some people, before that, there’s, you know, I joke being a designer, the running joke for me was that I was told there would be no math. And, and so the idea of HTML and being able to kind of type something in and it would reposition a picture, or make a background red instead of blue. Like, there was something really fascinating about that. And so I think at the very basic level, I was like, that was intriguing. And then I started learning about, you know, using Flash and kind of interactivity and storytelling through the digital space. And, you know, and just the, the burgeoning internet. I mean, there’s so many things you couldn’t do with it. But there was just something exciting about it. There was something democratizing about it. And so I, you know, I can’t tell you specifically, but I do know when I was in college, but halfway through, I tried to switch majors because I wasn’t getting enough of access to the web and the interactivity and that kind of thing. And I ended up sort of creating a hybrid major for myself, because nobody really done this yet. The internet kind of, in a big way happened right halfway through college. And I ended up sort of creating a hybrid degree, if you will. So I have a sort of advertising a new media, whatever that was at the time. And by the time I graduated, I had freshmen students who were being sent to talk to me, because the head of our department had said, Go talk to him, he’s created a hybrid program. And so technically my degrees in advertising, but I got a whole lot of other stuff in there as well.


Now, that’s awesome. I mean, diversity is always good. But I think something that you mentioned that I think sticks out, I mean, I, I’ve worked at other agencies here in the valley. And that’s where I got started in the digital space. But I to your point, there’s so many smart people very well educated people, great ideas, but it’s a, it’s tough to articulate in a short amount of time, what it is the point that you’re trying to get across, I’m horrible at it, I get into the weeds too much. And I get to need to try and do a better job at keeping a high level. But I mean, what what are the things that causes that? I mean, it’s, you’ve obviously seen a lot of people do that. What is the root? I guess that causes that?


I think, I think the root of it is, I’m gonna say almost a lack of preparation, or a lack of awareness to prepare. And what I mean by that is, you know, understanding at a very basic level, kind of, you know, who is the audience I’m speaking to, and what do they care about? And then using that as a guidepost, because I think what happens is when people don’t prepare, and they don’t think about that, they just start speaking from the gut. And it’s, you know, if they’re technical, that’s kind of where they lead. And, you know, the problem is that when people sort of don’t know quite what to say, and worse yet, if they start to get a little bit anxious or nervous, when they’re up there, they tend to double down on what they know, which, ironically, is completely the opposite of what you want to do, because you’re just further confusing the audience potentially. And so I think that that’s the root of it is that people aren’t really thinking about who they’re speaking to what their goals are, and they don’t do that little bit of preparation. I sometimes, you know, I’ve been in these situations where I’m in a group, you know, at a, let’s say, seed spot or some mentoring event. And there’s 20 of us in a big circle, and they’re saying, Hey, we’re just gonna go around the room and introduce ourselves. And oftentimes, I’ll be in the back of my head, kind of think, like, Okay, so this is a nonprofit audience, and we’re going to be mentoring. And I’ll sort of quickly frame what I want to say. And that makes a difference, because otherwise I can just sort of blurt out a bunch of stuff, and it starts to get confusing, and then I try to fix it. And then that gets more confusing. And so that would be


where the trouble starts.


No, I mean, it’s funny, you mentioned that because the when I do prep a little bit more, the getting into the weeds doesn’t come out as much. So it’s like, there’s an aha moment right there that just came out. But when it comes to planning and prepping, it’s, I mean, it’s one thing just to go through the pitch deck or whatever, whatever it is here and talk about but I think one thing that I, I miss on a lot of people miss, especially when we’re coming up with a creative and what is it that we want to say in these ads is Who are we trying to reach? Who is it that we’re trying to communicate to? And I’m huge on the analytics and data side, and we’re building dashboards, it’s always who is this for is this for the executive team is that people doing the actual work? Because I mean, the data that you communicate is going to be different based off of who’s going to be receiving that data. So when it comes to prepping, I mean, what are what are some tips that you have, I mean, to prep a little bit better?


Well, I mean, you know, I always talk about like, knowing your audience. But the other thing, you know, and I had this conversation with Chaz, actually, a couple weeks ago, we were talking about one of his new product that he’s working on. And, you know, I said to him that he was coming at it, because he has this depth of knowledge around marketing. And and the way you put together your lists and the way you work through your lists, and that kind of thing. And I was making the point, that, you know, for someone like myself, not a sort of marketer, not classically trained or nothing like that that’s a new premise to me. And so it was hard for me to understand the value of his product. And so I had him sort of step back. And we were talking about sort of the messaging as an educational piece, where it was, like, you know, educate me at a high level on why this is valuable, and then kind of get into a little bit more detail. And it’s sort of this incremental releasing of information. And so I think it’s kind of using that mindset, when you’re looking at your audience, you know, is this an audience that they understand the technology to understand the nuance, okay, jumped in right here? Or is this an audience that is interested more in the benefits of this product? They don’t really care how it works? Great. Let’s let’s focus on that. Or is this you know, is this a group that’s worried about the ROI and the financial side of it? Okay, then I’m going to talk about that I learned that very often with in the work I was doing in the agencies, because if I was speaking to a group of people that understood, first of all cared about and understood branding or design that I might get into the aesthetics. But if I’m talking to people that are decision makers, and they’re worried about how this is going to solve their problem, I’m not going to get into that You know, the colors and the logo because they don’t care, they want to know how is someone going to be able to kind of move through this experience really seamlessly complete the tasks, you know, make the transaction or whatever that is. And so it’s really just, you know, at a very basic level sort of going, Well, what does this person care about? In now? And that might be the, you know, to get back to your original question. It’s like, I think asking yourself, what is this person care about? And, you know, if they don’t care about these other three things that I already could talk about, then I won’t talk about them. It’s a little bit, you know, the this idea, I’ve had clients, and I’m sure you’ve had this too, where it’s like, they’re so enamored with their product, they want to talk about every aspect of it. Except the reality is that the customer only cares about these three features, you know, and I’m thinking specifically added client years ago, TiVo, and you know, they were, they wanted to talk about like, 26 different things that were like, it’s like the remote, okay, it’s got 100 buttons on it, but people use the five of them maybe. Uh, huh. doesn’t doesn’t diminish all the work you’ve done in the research or anything else. But like, it’s not going to be the thing that people grab onto a piece of marketing communication. You know, these other 25 things they care about? And those three are those five.


And I mean, first part is, I mean, it sounded like that was a lot of internal communication, selling internally. But I mean, you bring up the Rok, I want to say Roku, TiVo, TiVo, bring up TiVo that is going to Roku but something like that. I mean, how do you go through that, that process and identifying those things? Because I mean, to your point, it’s, I mean, we’re actually having this discussion internally, literally, like four hours ago. It’s like, we have all these packages, we can do video and do this and all that. And it’s like, how do we communicate that in one simple little graphic, or one tagline? or whatever it may be? But how do you go about identifying? To your point? What are those five buttons that people are pressing? Is it? Is it research? Is it looking at the data? Or how do you how how would a brand come up with what those things are that the customer actually cares about?


Well, I mean, there’s, I think, now more than ever, we have just access to unbelievable amounts of information just through, you know, social media through the web. So I think there’s a lot of recon that you can do in that regard pretty quickly. You know, and then the next step is, again, because of technology we have, you know, just like what we’re doing, you know, you can hop on a Zoom call, or do a text message or do something on LinkedIn. And just ask people some questions. You know, there’s a friend of mine that I’ve worked with over the years. And, you know, he used to lament, when he had a startup many years ago that he burned through all of his investment trying to create this MVP before he really validated it. And you know, so I’ve always, he’s always made the point that, you know, you can validate something on a, you know, with a pencil on a piece of paper, you don’t need to build it. And so I think it’s about having that where with all to do that recon yourself, ask some quick questions. I mean, in an afternoon, you can get a pretty good sense if you talk to 10 people, five people, whether this is something that is going to work, or whether the five things you want to talk about, you realize, like, wow, they don’t care about those things, what they care about was these other two things I never even thought about. And so it’s really valuable to do that research. You know, and I think once you have that clarity, then there’s also the question of where is the person at in the sort of the decision, you know, the buying decision. And that was one of the things that I was talking about with Chaz, kind of like, Well, how do we, you know, not overwhelm them with too much at this stage, because this is just that awareness piece, you know, and then oh, now they’re into this, this part of the funnel is part of experience. And so we’re gonna give them a little bit more, you know, it’s, um, it’s kind of along the same lines as the way back in the day, we talked about website content, you know, you don’t just kind of like put everything on the homepage. You know, you’d be strategic, you know, it’s kind of like high level based on your research, what are the key things that people are going to respond to, and then as they self segment by clicking and going in, you start to reveal more details. So it’s like, you know, I have no interest in a white paper on the homepage, but maybe two or three levels down. I’m interested now, because I’ve self selected. Mm hmm.


Now, that’s exciting. So that’s, I mean, personally, that’s what I love is using that data to identify that and it’s more times than not you see, too many brands just come out and buy for me and we have a discount. But it’s like you haven’t even told them what problem you solve or even said, Hello, this is who I am as a brand. And it’s identifying that that customer journey. I think the biggest thing that I mean, I can see it from the analytics side, but it’s coming up with that messaging on, depending on where they’re at in the journey, how do you get them down to the next level? I mean, I can set the reports to show the conversion rates are the the progress in the funnel, and ultimately, we try and increase each part of that funnel. But I mean, do you do much testing or is testing a part of what it is that you Do


specifically in terms of what I offer, it’s less something that I do I mean, if it if it becomes something that’s, that’s critical, I may, but I found that you know, the majority of where I focus or the or the most of my client relationships start with the the verbal communication. So a CEO or founder will come to me because they’re, they’re pitching to investors, or they’re, you know, pitches or are going to speak at a big event, or they’ve got a big webinar or something. And so that’s usually where it starts. And what’ll often happen is we’ll clarify that messaging and arm them with some key stories. And then that’ll sort of like a light bulb go off and realize that, you know, oh, wait, I need this on my website, as well. And I need this in our collateral, and I need my sales team talking about this. And so that’s where we might start to get into more of that the sort of nuances and the detail of that messaging as it relates to the customer journey, but it’s usually more on the verbal side.


Awesome. I think that’s a good jumping off point. I mean, not awesome, awesome. history definitely worked with some big clients. So what is it that you actually offer? And do? And at what point did all this get started?


So I’ll do the second question first. So it all kind of started in 2012. You know, as I said, I kind of had some breathing room, we’ve moved away from Seattle, and I was, you know, kind of on hunt for, for something new. And that was kind of where it started. And at the time, I was just, you know, I was it was like a startup, I was kind of just, you know, searching around for kind of the opportunities and started working with a bunch of local nonprofits, I knew some people in that scene, and so I was hosting workshops, and, you know, mentoring and things like that, and then sort of fell into the startup world. And, you know, I thought that was really interesting, because, again, the the core of what I love is, you know, helping someone express an idea, you know, I always approach it from the standpoint that, you know, you have knowledge, experience and passion. And all I’m doing is helping kind of turn some dials, so that when you speak, the people you’re speaking to feel that too, and want to help you in whatever way that is. So if you need investment, we want to help, you know, get them to take




or customers or whatever. And so that’s at the root of what I want to do is that idea. And so, you know, entrepreneurs and startups are, you know, they’re all about the idea, or all about kind of, you know, solving a problem. But you know, they’re also very close to it. And because they’re usually wearing 12, different hats, you know, as we do in the startup world, it’s hard for them to kind of, you know, like manage this, manage that manage this and have the wherewithal to be able to communicate really effectively. And so that’s kind of where I step in. And like I said, It usually starts with the CEO or the founder, Mm hmm. And it’s usually one on one coaching. And the way I do that is I usually work with people for a minimum of three months. And I figured out that, you know, that’s about the amount of time it takes to really craft some some really powerful messaging as well as internalize that and overcome what are often a lot of challenges that that CEO is having, in general, it could be around stage fright, and anxiety, it could be around just, you know, really testing that message, you know, making sure it works. And having come across in a really comfortable, confident way. And so three months is usually the way I work. And then we’ll usually extend that as we start to work on other aspects of their messaging in the business. And that probably represents about 65% of my work now is one on one coaching with, I refer to them as a visionary leader. I like it. And you know, and I say that because in the last year and a half or so, I’ve been really trying to kind of niche down to work with people that are tackling really, really big problems like clean tech, or you know, climate issues, or lithium battery technology and autonomous vehicles and stuff that’s kind of at that cutting edge. Because I feel like one that gives me a lot of satisfaction to be able to help people move that forward. Something it’s really important. And it’s just exciting, you know, to work with these individuals, and I’ll be honest, many of them are very technical, very sort of academic or scientific. And, you know, I can’t begin to explain half of the technology behind what they do, but I can explain it so other people care.


I mean, as long


as we once we get that, once we build that relationship, then that’s when the expertise comes into play.


Uh huh. No, that I mean that that’s huge. Um, real quick, Nikola or Tesla. What are you what are you a fan of?


Well, I’d say that’s a tough one, because I was reading about Nikola is kind of getting dragged through the mud, right? A bunch of legal stuff going on. So in that regard, I mean, Tesla’s I’m always a Tesla fan, but that’s more because I like the vehicles. I’ve driven the vehicles but interesting. Are you familiar with the local one called Atlas.


I don’t think are they over in Casa Grande didn’t,


I’m not sure I’m To be honest, I’m not sure where they’re located, but it’s their local electric vehicle company. And they’re focused on pickup trucks. And they are gorgeous vehicles. And this is all completely from the ground up from scratch. And at the moment they’ve got, they can do full charge in 15 minutes. So there were when I built some relationships with and I know their founder Mark and a few other other TP. So


I’ve got a bit of a bias.


Nikola Tesla, I would say Nikola and Atlas, just because they’re local. So there you go, I, what high level of that I love that they’re doing it. You know, I love that there’s some crazy people out there saying, hey, let’s let’s completely revolutionize the vehicle industry, which, as long as shown is not an easy task and cost a ton of money.


Yep. Absolutely. Love it. Um, so it sounds like I mean, you were at an agency or going big brands. And whenever you started, you know what you’re doing now? It seems like, you know, going from big brands to working with entrepreneurs and startups. I mean, those are two totally different mindsets, in terms of where the businesses at how much how many resources they have, was that a difficult transition for you to go from, you know, working with one type of audience over to another, or was it a pretty seamless transition?


I think in terms of the audience and the messaging, it wasn’t a big problem. It was really more a logistics thing. Because, you know, I did I haven’t talked about this, but actually, just before, within the same timeframe, when I had that epiphany about, Hey, I think I can help people with communication was right after I put together a bid for a big software project, you know, down in Tucson, and I realized that you know, what, when you don’t have an agency that has a team of people around you, it’s really hard. It’s just a bunch of contractors. And so that was one of the big transitions. I was like, crap. I don’t have 20 people around me, it’s hard to do this work. And so that also spurred my interest in like, what can I do that requires me and


maybe no one else? Yeah. So yeah,


so they’re a little bit different perspective on that. But that was what sort of the transition was the messaging, or the audiences really are the logistics fine scenes? Yeah.


I mean, in terms of, I mean, communicating, it seems like at the end of the day, each each industry or size of business, no matter what I mean, they’re just trying to solve a problem. So I mean, I think Yeah, in terms of just the logistics side is probably the biggest thing to figure out. It was that hard to not to mean, especially get up to a director level role, you’re not necessarily in the weeds doing the work as much as leading the people. I mean, was that a difficult transition? Or just not having someone that you can delegate to?


Um, not so much? No, I mean, I, I tended to be fairly hands on I mean, I trusted my teams, obviously. But, you know, I was fairly involved. And so other than like I just described other than that realization, which on one hand, you’d say, well, that’s blatantly obvious. But I was too close to it. I was too close to and say,


now and something you mentioned, recently, I mean, stage fright. I think a vast majority of people can relate to that. And I think that’s usually the hardest thing of when it comes to communicating is Oh, how do I look? Do I sound proper? I mean, is that something that you work on quite a bit with a lot of your clients and and what is that process? Like? How does one become less fearful of stepping on stage and really articulating what their you know, their mastermind is what big problems they solve, to really drive drive that messaging and get people on board?


Yeah, so I mean, the answer, the first question is, it’s it’s fairly consistent across most of my clients, you know, there’s an aspect of that some of them, it’s more overt, they come right to me and say, Hey, I’m terrified, and I need help. Others, it comes around sort of by the second or third conversation, it starts to come out that there’s that anxiety, I’ve been sort of surprised at how universal it is, you know, I’ve had, you know, CEOs that have made more money than I can ever imagine. And yet, they’ll say to me that, like, you know, I feel like an imposter. You know, I don’t know what I’m doing. I double down on the technology, you know, there’s all this kind of, they’re just human, they’re human beings when it comes right down to it. And so that’s something that is usually there’s an aspect of it in just about every client I work with, in some way. And so the way I deal with that is a few different things. There’s, you know, one of them is a lot of what we sort of talked about that preparation, that really understanding your audience and crafting some messaging that is aligned to that. I think that’s where a lot of the anxiety starts as the people aren’t really sure what to say. And so then that, you know, that internal dialogue of like, I’m not sure what to say, and what if I don’t say the right thing, and they’re going to not listen or not understand, and then it kind of like just spirals out of control. So that’s the first thing is, I think, really being prepared, understanding your audience and being prepped with, you know, the right messaging and the right materials, and then practicing that, you know, those those pitch presentations and mock presentation. But then another big piece of it is really around mindset, you know, and getting really clear on that, and a lot of it is, you know, it’s almost this, you know, to this idea that you have to identify what the problem is, and then create sort of a counter narrative of that. And so a lot of it is almost like reprogramming, where it’s like, I’ll have we’ll go through some exercises. And it’s like, identifying, well, what are the triggers are, what are the situations, it could be a particular type of room, it could be a particular type of audience, and we write that down, and then we write the opposite, you know, the counterpoint to that. And we’ll kind of work through that, I’ll have them describe it to me, and we’ll sort of reiterate that. And the idea is that you’re starting to kind of try and reinforce that new narrative, you know, what is that that positive side of the experience, you know, and then the other big piece of it is just the practice. Because there’s really two things going on, when you get that nervous energy, there’s the what’s going on in your head that that voice. And then there’s also just the the physical, the biological response, that fight or flight, which is much harder to overcome, because we’re hardwired our bodies are, you know, they’re trying to keep us alive, keep us safe. Yeah. And so that’s where a lot of those, you know, just that, that practicing that rehearsing, one of the really simple techniques that’s very powerful is you film yourself for maybe a minute or two of your talk or your pitch. And then you you listen to it without looking at the video. And then the second time you watch the video and don’t hear the audio, and then the third time you watch a complete. And what you’ll notice is what are you do with your voice, where the umms and ahhs and in the transition problems, and then also what’s going on with your bodies, you know, like you, I’ve had clients where they they’ll keep doing this thing with their hand while they’re talking.


And they don’t even notice it, they will watch the video and I’m like, what’s going on with his hands?


Well, I know what causes that that type of stuff. Because I mean, pretty much everything that you just outlined is things that I have experienced. I mean, the the preparation and identifying the audience, I think is the big epiphany for me, because it’s me, it’ll be I we’re gonna talk about this, and I just create something and talk about it rather than Alright, well, who’s gonna be in the audience? And, and all of that, but I mean, what causes those? Is it is it just the lack of preparation? Or is there something else that causes the umms and, and the hand movements and whatnot?


Well, I think they all stem


from the same thing, there’s that you know, that that physical, that anxiety that happens, the the butterflies in the stomach, I mean, a lot of you know, when you see people up on stage, or up in front of a group, and they’re, there’s a lot of that fidgeting, you know, they’re kind of crossing their arms, they’re putting their hands in their pockets, they don’t know how to stand, a lot of it comes down to the fact that there is that fight or flight and what’s going on is your body is giving you energy to survive, because it thinks that you’re going to have to fight, you’re gonna have to jump offense, you’re gonna have to do something. And so one of the tricks is giving that energy of place to go. And so if you’re in an environment, you know, you aren’t a physical stage, you can move around, okay, and so when we’re doing these rehearsals, one of the things I’m encouraging people to do is move around, because moving around gives that nervous energy a place to go. And if you’ve practiced it, and you’re comfortable doing it, when you get up on stage, or in front of a meeting, or wherever you are, that movement is doing a couple things. One, it’s it’s helping dissipate that nervous energy. But second, it’s actually helping with that love that perception of confidence from your audience. Okay, because when you get good at it, you watch people that are good at it, what they’re doing is they’re actually landing a message. So they’re talking, talking, and then they might turn to a particular part of the audience and land that message, period, and then kind of pivot and start talking and move to the other side and land the message. And it becomes really powerful as a tool to convey that confidence. The other thing that’s a third benefit is, and I’m sure we’ve all had this, remember from like grade school, when the teacher would move through the class, you were concerned that they’re going to ask you to come up with a board or answer a question you immediately they’re really paying attention or trying to hide what are the two, right? And so when you’re up on stage or in front of a group of people and you start moving around, people start paying attention, because they’re naturally engaged because they want to own this person’s left. They’ve stepped off the stage. They walked away from the podium, they’ve done something. And I was at a conference a number of years ago and it was a panel discussion. And it was maybe the third speaker and it was getting a little dry. was a big room. And the fourth guy, when it was his turn, he took the mic off the table and just got up and walked right into the audience. And everyone perked up, and it changed the whole energy in the space, because he was reading the room, you know, using see that, you know, we’re starting to lose the energy here, it’s been 45 minutes, or whatever it was. And so, you know, and when we look at great speakers, if they’ve, they’ve done it enough, they’re able to read the room, they’re able to read themselves, they’re able to kind of do all these things I just described. So it comes across as like really confident and comfortable. But I guarantee it took practice to get there.


Yeah, so as I say, is it it seems like that’s version two, once you can get over the alright my heart’s not pounding every time I’m about to go up, and I can feel myself sweating and shit. Once you get past that, then it’s pretty much owning the audience, not so much owning owning the audience, but controlling the room, the environment and everything to really just hone in on that messaging, because it’s those little nuances that it seems like where that that you stop moving and shift to really nail down the the message that you’re trying to communicate and all that and then and no, I I love it. When it comes to


I was just go ahead


and add one point in there, one of the things we talked about sort of that that mental aspect of it, you know, what I say to people is that, you know, you’re not going to be able to completely eliminate the butterflies, you’re not gonna be able to completely eliminate that, that inner chatter. So what I say to people is, it really comes down to a choice, okay, you can either let the fear own you, and control you. And, and, and sort of really embrace that fear. Or you can take that energy that your body’s giving you and use it as a positive, you know, and be excited and be engaged. Because a lot of people overlook the fact that when you’re getting up to speak in front of a group of people, it’s because you have valuable information to share, you know, you are a subject matter expert, or you are the founder of a company, or you have some great new technology. And so that’s something to be really excited about. Because what you’re doing, potentially, if you do it, right, is getting a whole group of people to know about you and want to support you and want to help you. And so that’s one of the big mental shifts I try to get my clients to is like, take that energy, that nervous energy and turn it into excitement. Because it’s, I mean, having a captive audience nowadays, given just how saturated Our lives are with technology and media, it’s a huge, huge thing. So don’t waste it.


Yeah, no, that’s the name of the game. I mean, then marketing, it’s grab that attention, you can actually get that message across. I mean, a lot of what you’re mentioning, is really speaking to your audience. And so I know, through this conversation, one thing I’m realizing is, you know, someone asked, Hey, can you talk about YouTube ads, and it’s cool, I can talk so many different ways. But once I can identify that audience, I mean, how does one go about constructing what that messaging is, whether it’s a PowerPoint, I mean, if you’re talking to people that are actually, you know, running ads, and they’re just trying to get your knowledge, as opposed to a CEO that’s trying to make a decision, whether that’s the route they want to go, how you build that deck, or what you communicate is going to be different. So how, how would one reverse engineer how they want to put their content together based off of their audience? Does that make sense?


Yeah, let me see if I can, I think again, it comes down to that very first thing, we talked about understanding what your what your audience cares about. And so if you’re speaking to a group of people, and it’s very tactical, and they’re looking for kind of, you know, like, Hey, here’s the top five tips to, you know, do better Facebook ads, or YouTube ads, or whatever it is. That can be, you know, very tactical, and very straightforward. And that’s assuming that your audience is, you know, fairly


savvy. Maybe if they’re not,


maybe requires a little bit more of an intro, let me tell you about sort of, you know, why this is, how this came to be and how I use them. And then we’ll talk about how it can work for you. So it can be just those little nuances of like, Hey, this is tactical, they get it, I don’t waste your time, I’m gonna jump right it. Versus Hey, this is, you know, a group that is wanting to learn about why Facebook ads are valuable, and how they can leverage them for their business. And so it just might require a little bit more upfront. Or, or if they’re, for example, maybe they don’t know you. And so that’s oftentimes where there’s an opportunity to build some trust. And it’s not trust, like, hey, I’ve ran big teams, and hey, look at my diploma, and hey, I’m great. It’s more and that’s your story. We haven’t really talked about story, which is I think, interesting, because story is so critical. But that’s often where I’ll recommend using some sort of a story. It could be your story, it could be oops, your story could be customer story. It could be an industry story. But the idea is that you’re using a story to connect with your audience right away. And you want to make sure that story hitting on the key things that they’re interested in, in so it could be you know, you could start off by saying, Hey, I’m gonna get into five critical tactics that you can use to uplevel, your Facebook advertising. But you know, I want you, I want you to understand just the potential here. And so then maybe you tell a story about a customer you’ve worked with, and how they went from, you know, zero conversions to this, simply by using two of these five techniques, I’m going to tell you that. So it’s kind of like building that anticipation. It’s kind of getting them interested. And just giving you that that sort of position of trust and authority without being kind of a dick about it, or it’s just like going through your resume. Yes.


Yeah, no, no, you bring up a good point, the whole storytelling, it’s now you know, your audience, you know, what it is that they need to successfully communicate what it is you want to communicate to them? How do you bring the storytelling aspect into that? Because that’s essentially what, what all we’re trying to do is someone that’s trying to solve a problem? How can we communicate to the different people until they get through a story and the story will be in bite sized chunks and essentially use that funnel to bring them down? But I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s so big. I mean, everyone likes a good story. So I mean, what, what, what are your thoughts on on just storytelling and why it’s so important?


Well, so in general, I mean, storytelling is powerful. Because when it comes to sales, when it comes to decision making, it’s, you know, decision making is an emotional thing. It’s an emotional decision, but then we have to justify it logically. And so that’s why using emotion and logic in any sort of communication is really powerful. When we look at great presentations. What hooks us oftentimes, is there’s this rhythm, there’s this movement between kind of an emotional point, and a logical point, an emotional point and a logical point. And so it’s really about how you weave those two things together. You know, at a very basic level, if you think about, like, you know, hey, I want to have another coffee, that’s an emotional thing, you know, I’m feeling like coffee, just that tastes that it’s middle That afternoon, I’m starting to kind of get slow, except then logic kicks in, because you’re like, Oh, no, I’ve had four coffees today, or it’s, I don’t want to spend another five bucks, or I’m already left this, you know, whatever the, and it’s, it’s the same thing, whether you’re buying a coffee, or buying a car, or a house, or whatever it is. And so that’s where, you know, I think it’s so critical. And that’s why so many, you know, we always hear this, like presentations are so boring. You know, how can this Hello, my God, it’s so boring. And it’s because we often will turn a presentation into a report, you know, like, here’s the numbers, here’s the data. And what I always say is like, data is great. But if you can’t want to care about the data, it’s just a bunch of numbers. Mm hmm. You know, whereas if you kind of sign a human benefit, or negative to the data, you’re showing, suddenly, when you say like, nine out of 10, people are experiencing x. And I’m thinking about that person who you just talked about Sally, who’s a single mother who’s struggling with this, that and the other. And now I understand that nine out of 10 people, suddenly that means something. And so that’s where, you know, storytelling and emotion becomes so critical, in you know, any form of communication,


when it comes to storytime. And it can be done as simple as a short, little 15 second clip or a presentation. I mean, how does one go about telling a good story? I mean, what are the components of a good story? And, and how to really tell it?


Sure. So I mean, in terms of the components, there’s, there’s sort of four key things. There’s authentic, let me let me go do my little story here. So first of all, you need identifiable characters. Okay. Secondly, these authentic emotions. The third is some sort of a critical moment. Okay. And then the fourth is specific details. And so what that means is like when we talk about the character, identifiable character, so if I’m talking to a group of startup founders, let’s say, then the story I share should have a character that they can relate to, they can see themselves in that story. And then when we get into an authentic emotion, again, it needs to be something that my audience can connect to. So if I’m talking about I’m telling a story about a founder, and I’m talking about how they were frustrated, they were feeling overwhelmed. They didn’t know what to do next. Those are all things that my audience can connect to. And they’re all in their mind. They’re filling in the blank, they’re putting themselves in that situation. And then the third thing was that that critical, critical moment, okay, where a change happened. And so this is, you know, Joseph Campbell has the Hero’s Journey. Uh huh. Which is, you know, you look at all sorts of, you know, Star Wars and films are all sort of using the structure, but I love this really super basic one, which is like there’s normal, and then there’s explosion, and then there’s new normal. So it could be like normal was I was using that piece of software and it sucked. Explosion is I upgraded and got the new version. New Normal is it kicks ass, and I I’m able to do my work. Uh huh. Okay, so, you know, some very basics there. And then the fourth thing was the specific detail. And that is, again, getting someone to emotionally connect to that story you’re telling. And so it’s not just a very superficial, you know, hey, I’ve got this founder, and they were struggling, they’re emotionally frustrated and overwhelmed. And then they did X, Y, and Z, and their problem was solved. It’s about getting into the details, like, you know, I want to tell you about my friend, Bob, you know, Bob has been fixated on this idea for years and years, he knew that it was a great idea. But he was really struggled and overwhelmed. And he didn’t know how to how to overcome this problem. And he’d sit there last night, in his garage, you know, the fluorescent lights flickering above him, and, you know, etc, etc. The idea is that, if I’m listening to that, I’m already visualizing like, Oh, yeah, the garage working away in the workshop, or whatever it is. And that’s, you know, because what you’re doing is you’re getting someone to emotionally invest in your story. And what I’ve described that could be, that could be 15 seconds, or it could be three minutes. But the idea is that now once I get into the logic, you already care. Okay? That’s, that’s the biggest piece of it. Because, you know, if you don’t, if your audience doesn’t care, you might as well not you’re not gonna get anything out of them doesn’t matter how good the deal is, or how big the discount is, or whatever it is.


Yep. No, I love it. And so I mean, you brought up a good point, doesn’t matter if it’s 15 seconds, three minutes, an hour, or whatever it may be. I think the biggest question that everyone would have is All right, we’ve all come to an agreement that everyone’s attention span just keeps dwindling dwindling dwindling. How can I tell an overall story that shows how I’m my product or service just moves mountains and changes worlds on a 15? Second span? I mean, how do I do that?


Well, I think, again, it comes down to understanding where someone is in the decision, you know, the journey. And so, you know, if we’re right at that early stage, it’s about sort of wetting their whistle, you know, it’s about speaking to like, what is the most valuable thing that you can provide, or your business can provide? That is going to sort of get them in the door, you know, and that may not ultimately be what you want them to buy, but it’s, it’s about what piques their interest. And so that, that, you know, that might be what that 15 second story is, and then as you get them to a different point, then that story changes a little bit. You know, the other thing, you know, a lot of times they’ll see this, or I work with clients, and it’s, you know, the maybe they’re doing a half hour talk or 20 minute talk or something. And what you do is you introduce a character in the beginning to set up the problem, you know, so here’s Bob, here’s the problem he was having, you know, this problem is a huge problem across the board. So what I’ve done is introduced, why this is a problem, who it affects and why the audience should care about it. And then now I get into some of the logic and why this is a great solution and how our team is great. And then I’m hinting at, like, you know, what happened to Bob, but I haven’t really told them. And so then at the end of it, I now talk about Bob, and how Bob’s career life business, whatever has been completely transformed. And so that’s another aspect of storytelling is that we as human beings, we naturally want to see how it ends. Mm hmm. You know, it’s sort of, I’ve joked with this, it’s the same reason why you know, you’re driving in traffic, and there’s a slow down, and there’s something going off on the side, there’s a car fire or whatever, you always want to see it. You can you can see it, car fire, but you want to see it, you need that resolution. You know, I’ve been sitting in traffic for 20 minutes. And this traffic jam, I need to see how it is.


Yeah, no, I love it. Um, I mean, how we kind of communicated is I mean, you got 15 second videos, or whatever it may be. It’s, it’s making that trailer and I like to kind of compare it is I mean, you got movies, that’s you got a two hour movie, but they got you in the movie theater with that little two minute trailer just giving you enough to, to show you what it’s about, but then keeps you wondering, and that that wondering, now you have their attention on any other form of communication that you give them? They’re going to see the brand and oh, yeah, I remember that. And now you can continue that, that that communication flow, essentially, but it’s that how can you get that attention from that first piece of communication to then plant the the brand or the message or whatever it may be to then lead to the other trailers, which then leads to the movie, and that’s your product or service or whatever that may be?


Yeah, and I mean, a great example of how this has changed. You talked about attention spans, I mean, all you got to do is look at like movie trailers from the 80s. You know, where there was often a voiceover kind of explaining, you know, like, what’s going on, you know, like, well, little Jimmy struggled with this. And then he did this, and, you know, whereas now it’s, you know, quick cuts and like, you know, a bunch of different things, and you, you kind of don’t get too I mean, what I appreciate about it is they don’t give it all away, you know, those those ones from back in the day, man, it was like, why do I need to see everything? You know, and so I think that there’s aspects of that and that’s the thing is, is if you if you can construct that story, what I’ll do when I work with my clients as we construct it, Sort of long form, we get into all the detail and all the nuances, etc. And then what we’ll do is start kind of narrowing down, like what little bits can we teach here? And what little bits can we take out that are critical? And what little bits do we add here? And you’re sort of creating this this theme or this running story through the the presentation of the pitch?


Mm hmm. No, I love it. I mean, it comes down to how can you say more with less?


Yeah, I mean, this is what I was, in the very beginning when I was doing my business, and I would go to networking events. And people were like, oh, what do you do? And, you know, luck. And um, you know, I always hated that question. But I started pivoting. And I’d say, I teach founders how to present like Steve Jobs. That, you know, that I mean, it’s it’s five seconds. But if I was talking to the right, people who knew Steve Jobs, new technology, knew Apple, that was all I needed. Because the next question is, well, how the hell do you do that? And then I can get into my, my, my process or my methodology, but it was, you know, versus like, what, what do you do? Oh, I’m a communications coach. And I work with entrepreneurs and you know, data data. It’s like, that’s all logic. That’s all logic. But when I say, Oh, I teach founders how to present like Steve Jobs. Yeah, everybody knows Steve Jobs. And he was an amazing presenter and speaker. And so it was it was in. How long


did it take you to get to that point? I mean, that that’s something we’re constantly trying to refine. And and to me, at first starting on this, what do you do? Oh, we do video we do this, do that. All the things that we can do, rather than the solution we bring to the table, which at the end of the day is helping brands grow through marketing, and all that. But how long did it take you to get to that that point where you could?


Well, it actually came fairly quickly, because there’s nothing worse than networking events. Unfortunately, we don’t have very many anymore, but like, when they do come back, it’s a great testing ground, because there’s nothing worse than going out there. And having someone say, Oh, hey, I’m Bob, what do you do? And you say what you do, and there’s like, nothing is happening. They don’t care


or even internally after you say it, and it’s like I even say,


yeah, so that’s, that’s kind of, you know, it can be very quick. You know, I’ve had I’ve, you know, I’ll test different things out where you walk out, and it’s like, well, I’ll try this one out. I’ll try this one, you know, but the other thing that I’ve learned actually, is that ironically, when it comes to networking, and those kind of impromptu conversations, I usually try not to talk about what I do. In the beginning, I want to understand I want to get the other person talking. Because then they’ll share information that I can I can leverage, you know, and it’s it’s about that shared. You know, I talked about common ground. I haven’t mentioned it yet, but common ground is a really critical piece. And emotion, empathy and storytelling are great way to bring people in and create that common ground. And so it’s, it’s when you go to networking, I know we were talking about it, but we’ll go into networking. You know, people start talking about what they do. What do you do? What do you do? I hate that question. Because I want to know more about you. I want to understand you. And if I can make a connection with you, on a personal level, some mutual sport, we’re interested in a neighborhood thing, a family thing of vacation. Now, I’m already you already remember me? Yeah, that now. Now, when it comes to what I do, it’s very different because it’s an emotional connection, versus the other 20 people you met that just gave you their card and said, Hey, I’m gonna help you automate your marketing, it’s gonna be the greatest thing ever. You’re like, Okay.


Yeah, I mean, it’s fine. I mean, as you mentioned, that common ground, I didn’t even know that was a thing. But I mean, that’s essentially, again, what we try and do with the data is once we can see what is it you’re like, once we can learn more about you. That’s why I go back to mark marketing isn’t I don’t know, everyone thinks it’s a one way communication street. But it’s, it’s a two way dialogue. And we live in a world where when you get more of that data, you know, what content they’re looking at what videos they’re looking at, you can get more of that that common ground, then you can follow up your message with, I mean, not as blatant as I saw you reading this, but now that, you know, if they’re looking at pricing or whatever it may be, you can then formulate whatever your next message is going to be that that, you know, you have that common ground. I mean, if you’re in the middle of the speech, I mean, how do you find that common ground? Is it a matter of knowing them? Or does it make sense to create some sort of like, you know, real time polls or something like that, where, how many people feel this? Or how do you create that common ground? quickly without asking too many questions?


Well, I think I think you want to go into it, in whatever you’re doing, you want to go in with the best intentions and already having a level of empathy and understanding. And that can be as simple as the language you’re using. You know, if you’re talking to a group of people that aren’t, for example, technically savvy, and you want to talk about technology, then you know, you go in with more accessible language, because there’s nothing worse than going in and trying to prove how smart you are, and thereby alienating the audience. So you’re not creating any common ground. So I think you still need to do that prep. And then the other piece of it is that you know, if you’re doing this enough that you’re starting, you’re getting comfortable, where you’re actually able to kind of read the room read the audience. And so, you know, you can see the energy level dropping, or you can see a change. And you can you know, that’s when it’s a great opportunity to Yeah, ask a question, change the energy in the room. So it might be, you know, you start to see it starting to fade. And you might ask a question, you know, like, well, how many people are struggling? x y&z? Oh, yeah, I mean, you need or you know, something like that, and it can help both get them reengaged. But also give you a little more fuel to now work from I personally, I love q&a, when it comes to any kind of presentation or talk I’m giving I love the q&a portion, because it allows me to kind of think quickly on my feet, and it also allows me to be directly, you know, solving a problem that they have. And you know, if one person is asking if there’s 10 other people that probably have that problem, too. And so it is there is a certain skill and being able to read the room, read that energy, much like that guy I mentioned earlier, who picked up the mic off the table and walked out into the crowd. And when he could see that it was, it was it was the energy was dropping? Yep. Yeah, you


know, and


I was gonna say, I keep interrupting you, I apologize. But there’s this thing I learned many years ago, I can’t read what book it was it but they’re talking about the the seven minute rule. And I would argue that probably it’s half that now. But the idea was that that you needed to as a presenter, as a speaker, someone kind of commanding the attention of the room, you needed to change the energy in the room every seven minutes. And I like I said, I think it’s probably about three minutes now three to four minutes. And that could be asking a question, it could be showing a video, it could be handing out a prop, it could be, you know, just the idea that you’re not just droning on and droning on. And so again, that’s reading the room and knowing how to change that dynamic.


That’s awesome. I mean, there’s, there’s so much that, that I can see helping with in terms of just I mean, the prep to reading the room to creating the common ground of the story. I mean, there, there’s so much the knowledge that you have what has been the best, I guess, most fulfilling scenario where where you help someone that had a really good idea, they couldn’t communicate it, you they went through your process, they pitched it sold it, and it just was the most exciting time of their life. I mean, what was what was that one moment, I guess?


Um, well, I like I’m very fortunate and very happy to have a lot of those moments with my clients. But there’s, there’s a couple of there’s one in particular, it’s sort of a number of people, but it was sort of one thing, there’s a group that I’ve worked with for years down in Tucson, and they’re a nonprofit will actually there. It’s almost like a an incubator for nonprofits, if you will. And they hold an event every year, where it’s basically a pitch of it for the nonprofit leaders to come in and pitch what they do. And I find those really satisfying, because these are individuals that are very much like startups, much like founders, you know, nonprofits are very passionate about what they’re trying to do. And many of them have not had formal training in marketing, communication, things like that. And so to be able to have them come into this experience, and be nervous as all get out and not know what the heck they’re going to do, and then be able to kind of demystify the process and work through some exercises with them as a group, and help them craft that pitch. And then to see them, you know, many weeks later, after we’ve practiced and work together, to walk out on stage in front of 1000 people. And you know, I’ve been doing this for five years with this, and there’s usually 12 to 15, individual, nonprofit leaders will go up and speak.


And I’ve never had never seen one of them fumble in


a couple cases, you can see they’ve lost their, their, their path, you know, they’re there. And you can see that look up where they lost and then get right back into it. And it’s because they’ve prepped, and the nice thing, not only is when they get up on stage and perform, but when you hear anecdotally is that they’ve taken what they’ve learned and brought it back to their organization. And so now they’re, they’re helping other people in the organization get more confident and do a better job of spreading the message, which ultimately means they’re able to increase their reach, increase their impact, you know, whether you’re talking about a for profit or nonprofit, it’s all about connecting and communicating and getting other people to join you. And so those are that’s one that I really find a lot of satisfaction from,


Oh, I bet. I mean, you are literally the the person that can help someone that has that plan that can change the world to actually executing someone that’s working 80-90 hours a week to try and just tell the world what it is and just work with you. The simple little tweaks allows them to communicate better and all of a sudden, there’s tremendous growth. I mean, I bet the excitement that people have whenever they come to you when it’s like they know that they pitched it and it was well recepted, I’m sure that that thank you email or call, or whatever it is, I mean, has to be the most fulfilling, I mean, form of communication that you can get from from some of your clients.


Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s lifelong learning. I mean, this is something that, you know, they learn this skill, and they see success. And then they build upon that. And I mean, being able to speak about what you do and how you do it, and the impact you’re having. I don’t care what industry you’re in what position you’re in, that is wildly valuable. And you know, it’s always interesting when I encounter people that are like, Oh, I don’t I don’t want to put a video on LinkedIn. And I don’t want to, you know, and I’m sitting there going, well, you know, unless you’re independently wealthy or something, you’ve got to get out there. You’ve got to get other people to hear what you’re doing. Mm hmm. You know, and so it’s, you know, it’s sort of at your own peril. Yeah, I guess if you’re, if you’re sitting there going, I don’t want to do social media, and I don’t want to do presentations and like, Okay, well, no, so, and that’s, and I love working with the people that you know, they are, they are excited about improving. You know, I don’t I don’t want any reluctant, you know, clients, because there’s no point, it’s requires commitment. I mean, this is as much about you as me, I’m just here to help guide but you have to be on this journey. It’s like a personal trainer, I can’t lift the weights for you. I can’t run those miles for you, you got to do it.


Yeah, no, that that that’s awesome. I mean, it just helping people on their overall journey. I mean, bringing up journeys, what does now looking in the future? What, what are you most excited about? What are you working on over the next three to six months that, you know, you’re really trying to get out to the world?


Sure, sure. So I am, I’m actually wearing a shirt that love it, the Impact Academy. And so what this is, is essentially, really trying to leverage the online tools that we’ve got to create, you know, digital teaching products, so that it’s more accessible from a cost standpoint, as well as just a flexibility of interacting and using. And so I’m excited about building that out. Also, working on a new Facebook group, you know, which is a great a great opportunity for that collaboration, and that sort of incubation of ideas. And so those are a couple of things I’m working on. And then just, you know, I’m still on this path to really connect with those visionary founders that are tackling what I refer to as life changing projects, you know, whether it’s in, you know, climate science, clean tech, water, battery, I mean, the future of construction, because, you know, regardless of where you fall politically, or you know, climate change, I mean, we got a lot of work to do in the next 20 to 30 years now. Yeah. And I want to help bring those ideas forward and empower the people with skills to to make that happen. And so we got to be able to communicate it. Mm hmm.


Now, I love it, we’re just huge on I mean, the the skills that everyone has here is, mean, something similar, the biggest thing that we don’t really focus on is that direct communication and all that we can help get it out there. But I mean, no one knowing that we can get that out there in front of the right audience. I mean, we’re just all about trying to change family trees, one from the consumer perspective, but from the founder or business perspective, I mean, you have something that is such a good idea, and you can get it out there and communicate it correctly. I mean, you could, you could offer someone that someone even know was out there, and it could change their life. And, and definitely on the on similar wavelengths there. And so it’s, I can appreciate hearing where you’re coming from, and I love seeing the excitement. And as we kind of kind of wrap this up a little bit, I want to be mindful of your time, you know, someone that is struggling with trying to communicate, you know, what it is that they bring to the table? It’s something that we’re sitting in, I mean, what is the biggest piece of advice that you’d have for them?


I would say commit to improving your communication, because it really is a vital skill. And you know, there’s a whole we’ve talked obviously about a whole lot of different aspects of it. But I think the biggest thing is being prepared to commit to improving. Because I think there’s a lot of things we do sort of lip service to whether it’s our health or you know, our business or whatever. But being able to communicate that is a critical, lifelong skill. And so I think the first step is acknowledging and the next step is committing to getting it fixed.


I absolutely love it. I mean, Warren Buffett, he’s all about communication. And yeah, so I couldn’t agree more. But I really appreciate the time. And I know there’s a ton of people that that you know, value what you do, I mean, especially from our audience, and if someone were to want to hone in on their messaging and want to work with you, I mean, how can people find you and reach out?


Sure. So my website is the And there’s a variety of ways to communicate with me through that. And


then the other one is my LinkedIn profile.


Ashley Bright on LinkedIn, and there’s a ton of resources content there to learn some valuable skills, learn about me learn about how I can help. And just reach out and I’d love to get started.


Awesome. Well, I appreciate the time and look forward to to continue to watch your growth as well.


Well, thank you, Dustin, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you’re doing. I appreciate the invitation. And I just love it. You know, we got to band together and help people take their big ideas and communicate them.


Exactly, exactly. I love it. Well, I’m sure our paths will cross, you know, sooner rather than later and I can’t wait for when that happens. Excellent. Me too. Thank you.

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