In digital marketing, yesterdays big idea is todays old news. How do you keep up? RGR | 050

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Overview:

Funny story: Choozle didn’t start as the gang of digital advertising geniuses it is today. It was just an advertising unit of a site called “cuterpets.com” — kind of a HotOrNot for pets. (People did the voting, though.)

In fewer than eight years Choozle has earned dozens of top awards and rankings, including the No. 48 spot in Deloitte’s Technology Fast 500 for 2018.

Branden Miller, Choozle’s vice president of sales, explains how programmatic media works; why it should matter to you, whether you’re a brand or agency; and why even the bigs don’t try to do all their marketing grunt work in house.

Watch with your pet. Then vote!

Choozle’s Website: www.choozle.com
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Rise Grind Repeat Podcast
powered by EIC Agency
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Hosted by Dustin Trout
Produced by Andrei Gardiola
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Check out the full video episode on Youtube at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awg6XHikGHA&

For more information visit our website at https://eic.agency/ We are also on
Instagram @EveryImpressionCounts

| Rise Grind Repeat 050 |

(00:00):

Programmatic media is all about identifying the right audience and then leveraging the assets to find that audience within these open pools of inventory.

(00:22):

On today’s episode of Rise, Grind and Repeat, we talked to Branden from Choozle. We used choose a little by our TV ads, banner ads, native ads, and every other ad you can think of. We dive deep into how their platform can really help brands and marketers achieve their marketing goals. We really nerd out on this episode. Let’s dive right in.

(00:50):

[inaudible] awesome.

(00:52):

Well, thank you for joining us on a episode of Rise, Grind, Repeat and, uh, I’m excited for this because just working through the years at agencies and everything like that, it’s a, the, the value of programmatic advertising is just huge. The, uh, the opportunity of, of what all you can do is huge. And so just would love to learn more about chisel, who you work for and just kind of a, what the landscape looks like for programmatic now and kind of the future. And so, uh, to kinda kick things off, we’d love to,

(01:20):

who are you? Yeah, Dustin, thanks for having us. Excited to be in Phoenix. Excited to be in warmer weather from where I reside in st Louis. Uh, but my name is Branden Miller. I’m the vice president of sales at Choozle and oversee our national sales team. Our revenue unit is segmented into two groups, our account management team that focuses on expansion, cross-sales retention of the business that we already have closed. And then our sales team is focused on new logos only. Um, Ellen who’s in studio with us as well today, um, oversees the Southwest market and she’s focused on working with clients like you that are onboarding and getting their feet underneath them over the first 12 months and then directly focus focused on new business as well.

(02:01):

Yeah. And I will say it’s been great working with you, Ellen. Uh, just the onboarding process is awesome. It’s like, I mean, an email goes out and within like five minutes just here get a response and uh, yeah, just, it’s been awesome.

(02:13):

It’s good to hear that too. I mean, we really try to focus on that from a business standpoint. Um, even when like a lead is generated. So response time for the rep to a client that we’re already working with. Critically important, specifically with the account management team as well, but we try to provide our clients that experience from entry 0.1. Just an example of that really quick. Um, our sales development representative or SDR that works in the inbound unit is required and held accountable to a five minute call response time. So if you were to get on, if you were not working with chisel and you requested a demo, you’ll get a call from him over the phone in five minutes and an email directly after that because we understand that it’s about 80% of clients will or prospects will sign with the person that gets back to them the fastest and has like a positive experience for the interaction.

(02:57):

You’re on point, I mean that happens in industry, but even, I mean I was, I send out emails to like, uh, I think it was steel house as well and it took them another week to get back and it was just like, well, we’re already running up and running with, with another vendor. And so it was just, yeah, that response time is huge. And I mean that’s, that’s what’s important to every industry. Just, I mean, the every minute that goes by, every hour that goes by is another opportunity for someone to go, eh, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want to run with you guys. You know what I mean?

(03:22):

Yeah. I mean, with how sort of society’s evolved, like we live in a, uh, in a time where, uh, if you’re reaching out, you need something immediately. And if a day goes by, you may have already found a solution or you may have an evolving need that’s not the one that you had. So in the moment, if you need, uh, something in the programmatic space, our team is trained to, to get back to people quickly so we can have a positive client interaction from the very beginning.

(03:46):

No, I love it. And before we dive more into what programmatic is and all the capabilities, uh, we’d love to just hear kind of a background on chisel, how, uh, how to choose. We’ll get started.

(03:54):

Absolutely. Chisel has been around for a little over six years. Our cofounders were our, uh, Andrew Fisher and then a gentleman named Jeffrey Finch. They raised about a half million dollars, a little bit more from friends and family to start a business. Yeah. They weren’t exactly sure what they wanted to start at first. And, uh, one funny sort of background pieces there. Their first entry into the space was a website called cuter pets.com. So www.cuterpets.com and it was going to be a, a place where you could vote kind of like hot or not for pets, um, across the world. Uh, they quickly though realize there’s not a lot of revenue and cuter pets.com, um, besides, you know, residual advertising placements and they created a, an advertising unit, um, which was called a chisel. So we started in like the dynamic data gathering and dynamic creative space where we would provide an agency like EIC, um, the opportunity to use this dynamic creative piece where somebody could put, you know, a Jeep Renegade or a Hyundai Sonata and then folks would interact with that ad and they would collect data on that.

(05:09):

They soon realized is, um, we could better provide services to our partners through media buying and demand side platform technology. And really what that is, is a programmatic media buying software that they eventually developed. So pivoted from this half million dollar round trying to do like dynamic creative understanding that that maybe wasn’t servicing the need of the market. And then switching into this DSP space with independent advertising agencies and brands really. So if you look at like enterprise level technology or choose a one wanted to make hits bet was Google and the trade desk and media math, they’re all focused at the top of the market. They want to work with publicists. Yeah. They want to work with Omnicom, they want to work with a group M and there wasn’t a provider downstream to give those enterprise tools to independent media buyers and an aging agency like EIC or an independent brand or media buyer in house at a, at a client.

(06:09):

So did it, did it really start out? I mean, did the idea come, they got the uh, the, the vote for the cutest dog, you know, and was the whole goal to try and sell advertising placements and then it just evolved into more of the, the media buying?

(06:23):

Yeah, the goal, the goal first was just to sell those individual ad units. Just like there’s a company called GumGum that has like dynamic creative that pops up from the bottom. They now have an ad exchange but chooses charge. Originally it was, yeah, let’s just go sell those ad units to an agency. And you can think about when bright, shiny objects are like the thing people focus on. Yeah. That could be cool for a minute. They can make some money for a minute. But the longterm service that we wanted to provide our clients once we had a relationship would fade over time unless we came up with new products like that and having the standard DSP that we’re bringing enterprise level technology down to the independent market was a better solution and provide a better longterm prospects for the agency. And then also our business as well.

(07:04):

So I guess a from either an agency or do you guys work with brands as well or do you guys only work with agencies?

(07:10):

Yeah, we do. We do work with brands and agencies. One thing that I always say is we’re never going to cannibalize or try to steal business from our agency partners. Agency business makes up a big portion of our client portfolio, but there are times that brands in this current environment want to do things on their own. They want to own the data, they want to own the technology relationship and may decide that they don’t want to work directly with an agency. And in those situations, yeah, we’re happy to work with brands too.

(07:35):

Have you seen, I guess that trend growing cause I mean they’re, they’re just in the agency world. There is a growing trend of more brands bringing everything. Yeah,

(07:42):

absolutely. So quick data point, about 70 to 80% of our business now is agencies. So aggregated media spin with a bunch of different clients at a place like UIC, but 20 to 30% is brand direct as well. And over the last year chisels grown leaps and bounds. We’re on a really great trajectory. Folks like Ellen do a fantastic job bringing in new business. Our expansion team does a great job getting really integrated at the agency, but our largest line of business that’s grown is our brand direct business line and channel because more folks are bringing in house. So Elon’s trained and our account managers train. It’s not much of a different process or very different process to service a brand as it is an agency. But they’re all trained to speak directly to verticals that they may be more inclined to talk to or more, I should say, educated in. Um, but we work with a ton of brands as well. And it’s one of our larger growing lines.

(08:39):

Yeah. And I think, uh, I mean that’s, that’s kinda why we’re transitioning more to the data analysis, the ROI and all that. Because I mean, as just media buying becomes more, not so much easier, but I think more people are doing it and there’s more people that have the knowledge. It, it’s, you’ll quickly, I feel like as an agency kind of just lose your value because it’s, it’s what, what was tough to do before is getting a little bit easier, especially if as you guys are doing a lot of education and that’s kinda, yeah. That’s why we focus on the ROI side of things so much. Um, but no, that’s, that’s interesting cause it’s, that’s, I mean as talk to other people in agencies, that’s always the biggest fear is like, well the, the agency space is declining because more people are bringing stuff in house. But I think it’s just figuring out how to pivot. Like what chisel did at the very beginning. It’s, it’s finding a need in the marketplace and just kinda how can you bring value to that?

(09:27):

Yeah, absolutely. I think what you’re seeing too, to sort of build on your point is the access to, sorry, the access to enterprise level technology is coming down market and becoming more commoditized so anybody has access to it. And then also the education level is increasing day to day. So not only is the agency more educated, but folks that are being hired at brands as well are more educated systems like choose will provide a bunch of support and also education as well. Um, so it’s getting a little easier, which I think is why some brands feel like they can take that task on in house. But also to your point, agencies will always be indispensable for a myriad of reasons. A lot of in house marketing teams at brands don’t have the labor force needed or the resources needed to hire traders in the space or people who analyze data and then can translate that to the media buying the DSP.

(10:25):

So I have conversations with this about a number, sorry, with a number of people that I’m friends with. And then in the industry, one in particular was a VP of media at Starcom. Then went to a small agency like one that we would work with or an independent agency like when we would work with, and now she’s at a larger brand CPG that spends $300 million. She always says, I would, I would never do this in house because the agency provides independent, indispensable value of getting context across a multitude of clients. And I think that’s the same, not only at the large level, but in a situation like yours when you’re working with five, 10 20 different clients, you can draw those learnings into a campaign that you’re running for a particular brand that may not have the same perspective that you do.

(11:06):

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And a really good point. Um, kind of as a just chisels grown, what are some of the, I guess, hurdles that have been faced? I mean, is that, do you have any insight into that on like,

(11:19):

yeah. So as a, would you say as a business, which one would you like to do as a business or like as like a, as a business internally or as we’ve looked to kinda expand market and grow

(11:29):

spending markets and basically trying to deal with the growth. I think there’s a lot of, the economy has been good for awhile. There’s a lot of growth happening. I guess. How, what are some of the difficulties that you guys have faced? Um, expanding into new markets, whatever it may be.

(11:42):

Yeah, it all starts internal for me. So it’s about the people, right? You’ve got a good team here, you guys are growing. I’m here adding clients day by day and as you new people in that system to serve those clients wanna be able to trust them. So the first thing is like, we focus on having the right people and getting them educated, not only on our mission, but the way that processes work internally. Done a lot of work over the last year with the sales team ensuring that we’re all approaching market the same way that Cheazle’s being communicated and demonstrated in a way that’s consistent with what the organization wants and then also is consistent with our sales process. So I think it starts there, right? Cause you don’t want to hurt yourself internally. And then externally as we’ve grown, like the challenges are programmatic media is commoditized.

(12:31):

There’s a lot of different options. The spaces very complicated. Um, so that’s been interesting and navigate. We were one of the later and sorry, later, uh, organizations that enter into the space, which was a good and a bad thing. We saw a bunch of folks that have made some mistakes and made sure we didn’t make those. But also a lot of bigger companies had gotten market share, which we’re fighting against now. So one thing is, you know, market share competition. Another thing is the ever changing climate that we’re in. So that’s data privacy and you see things like CCPA that makes people unsure of if they want to invest their media in this space. GDPR is another example of that in the UK and then nefarious actors as well that we’re constantly trying to tamp out fires and play whack-a-mole because folks that are doing bad things with the technology that we have are often ahead of the curve from the folks that are trying to stop it at the same time.

(13:29):

Those are some of the challenges, but again, I like to focus on what you can control. I always tell my team is it’s like, Hey, there might be something on the product that you wish was different, but your focus should be here, so what can you control? So as we look at expanding market, if she uses the right people as the right process and they evolve and we evolve the way that we’re operating in, if it needs to be tweaked, then we can win on the things that we can control. It doesn’t matter what SteelHouse is doing, it doesn’t matter what central is doing, it doesn’t matter what, what are their competitors are doing as long as we’re focusing on the things that we can do well, I think we’ve got a really good chance of expanding and continue to grow.

(14:05):

No, that, that’s well said. Cause I mean it’s just working in, I’ve worked in sales before and everything like that and it’s always, well we could sell more if we did this or that, but it’s like if you just stay in your lane and understand how you can use this as a different differentiator and really just see how you guys bring more value, it goes a lot further than focusing on the negative. It’s positive versus negative. Absolutely

(14:26):

it shouldn’t, it goes without saying. But performance for the client is critical. So once we do have a relationship, a challenge can be that you over promise on something that you thought you could deliver. And the account management and service team can’t quite meet the expectation that you set in the sales side. So one thing that we’re focused on at [inaudible], aside from [inaudible] iterating the the platform that we have and providing new targeting tactics and features is the performance of the campaign as it stated from the very beginning from the client. So if it’s engagement, if it’s lead acquisition, if it’s data gathering for your retargeting pool, we really try to focus on performance from 0.1 because if we meet those goals, we know that we’re going to come back to you and say how, how else can we win for your client house? Can we win for the brand in your work?

(15:12):

No, I love everything you’re talking about. Just the client goals, the, the data that, that’s all huge and that I’d love to kind of transition into what are, what are all the, the, the different things that you guys offer. I mean that’s the, I I’m excited about the programmatic space cause there’s just so much flexibility in what you can do. And if you have a team that can produce creative on the fly, I mean there’s just the, the amount of different things that you can do are, are just endless. And so we’d love to hear what are some of the things, capabilities, like what is programmatic advertising?

(15:39):

Programmatic advertising is simply transacting media through a piece of software and a lot of times people confuse that with RTB. That’s a real time bidding. That’s where things started. Um, and we’ve evolved greatly since then. So the things that we can do now, we can transact any type of media within the platform, you to buy TV, he can buy it. You guys are working with us right now on some pretty significant connected TV campaigns. Um, here in the market. If you want to buy a streaming audio, we can do that. If you want to buy it from a website directly, we can do that as well. If you want to buy in the open exchange across, uh, the 50 exchanges that we have on set, the supply side, we can do that as well. And it’s really marrying that inventory with the supply side, with a certain tactics that you want.

(16:23):

It’s all about audience. Programmatic media is all about identifying the right audience and then leveraging the assets to find that audience within these open pools of inventory. So data onboarding, that could be CRM lists from Salesforce or HubSpot to hit targeted ads, contextual keyword targeting. We can do that. That’s reading the site content and placing ads that are relevant to those. And like I mentioned, connected TV and some of the other private marketplace and streaming audio options that we have as well. The only thing we don’t do, um, really, and I should mention that as well as when somebody asks, when I, when I ask them to, Hey, what’s your biddable media budget? Or what’s your media budget at your agency, across all your clients? They’ll typically give us an answer. And I want to understand though is that search and social and this programmatic piece, because they’re all different. So chisel can help with this open internet buying on every different channel. You’d want video, TV, audio display, but we can’t help with search and we can’t help with social because Facebook’s a closed, you know, wall garden as is Twitter. And the Google landscapes obviously closed as well. So we’re focused on the open internet marketplace.

(17:30):

Where are you guys able before Facebook shut down their APIs and all that? Take the audiences.

(17:35):

Yeah, they shut things down I think two Novembers ago. Yeah, I worked at a different organization, the head of this and that was one thing that we really focused.

(17:44):

That’s huge because you can import them and basically they can use them as first party audiences. Yeah,

(17:48):

we’ve learned now too, so Facebook shut down their third party data exchange after some of the political issues they were in last year and that’s actually been a benefit to our business. So we still have a robust third party data marketplace that you can utilize against the ads that you want to add audiences you want to buy on our platform. And Facebook can’t do that now. So we’ve seen a lot of agencies come to us and say, we used to use BlueKai on Facebook but we can’t do anymore. Can you guys help us out? Absolutely. We’ve got BlueKai and a number of other data partners and 55 ish and our platform that you can still use, uh, to hit the right on. [inaudible].

(18:29):

Yeah, I mean, going back to the TV at our TV, by the, we’re doing, I mean, just going through the third party audiences, it’s, it’s nuts. I mean, from household income to parents that have kids between the ages of three and five and all that. I mean, yeah, I, it’s, it’s, it’s all, it’s almost like too much. But that’s what I love cause it’s like, eh, and the beauty about it is you guys can have the, or an statements and so as you, I mean, if you get super creative and, and who you’re targeting, I mean, that’s where the creative piece comes in. And, and like I said, there are just so many different things that can be done in terms of, of targeting. How many data sets do you guys have available to even know?

(19:06):

Tens of thousands. But what’s nice is the way that the system reports the data puts you in a position of power as well. So you could say, Hey, there’s a lot. It’s almost overwhelming. We should always choose as many that you think are relevant because the reporting that we have back at the end of that first week, you know, the first month we’ll show you where it’s performing and then you can redact or diminish the data sets that you’re using in order to focus just on the ones that are performing at the level that you want.

(19:33):

Yeah. And that that’s what I love cause it’s what the detailed reporting it lines out each of the data segments and shows you the performance. There were like Facebook, if you make an audience, it shows you how that audience is doing but not is the household income targeting or this particular subset within the audience, how that’s performing. And then you can go in and kind of optimize our audiences that are already built. And that’s, that’s the thing I love as well. I mean it’s just data nerd. And so the more more data you have, the more insights you can get, which means you can make more or better decisions.

(20:01):

Yeah. And Facebook and Google have been strategically opaque in the information they provide. You’ll save the Facebook campaign ran well and it did based on the information you’re getting. But if you want to get granular, you want to get deep, you really need to be doing open internet, buying on a system like chisel alongside the stuff that you’re doing over there. Um, in order to see some of that more granular information that you want to. Well

(20:23):

it’s really cool is if you guys, I mean basically how I kinda, um, articulated is, I mean can you use chisel to really prospect and cause you have the so many different data sets so you can target the right person you want. I mean you guys have an awesome retarding component. I love the, the recency and the frequency capping and all that. But you could get the right audience there and then use Facebook and Google to do retargeting as well to compliment. And so at least you know that Hey, if you don’t have the third party audiences, cause they’re, they’re pretty limited in, in the targeting that you can do. I’d say Google offers a bit more, but um, really just leverage you guys to prospect quite a bit and the retargeting side, but you could also retarget knowing that you’re hitting the right audience on those other channels.

(21:04):

It’s refreshing to hear that. So every marketer is looking for a silver bullet. A silver bullet doesn’t exist. All these systems compliment one another. So I would never advise that an agency just use chisel. I probably shouldn’t say that, but I’m saying you probably just shouldn’t use chisel. You should have a Google connection because Google does some things really well. You should have a Facebook connection because Facebook does things really well. But complementing those things, you need chisel or a system light. Choose [inaudible]. We would prefer that it’s us, um, to make up for some of the deficiencies that those systems have. There’s benefits and limitations to every technology out there. Choose those great at prospecting. It’s great at driving top funnel. It’s even really good at driving acquisition stuff. Um, if you’ve got somebody smart internally reading the data and knows how to make those optimizations, but it’s always in compliment with these other things as well.

(21:53):

Like, and you’ve got to look at attributes in the same way too. A lot of partners that we have will decide to cut budgets with one platform or another due to poor performance. And the question I always ask is, let’s look at aggregate performance or the Metta performance across all your investments this year. And if it’s been better than it was last year, I know that you should just chop individual pieces of the equation out because attribution should be counted across all the investments you’re making, whether it’s television search, social open internet, buying on shoes or otherwise.

(22:26):

Do you guys have or are you guys planning on doing any type of attribution measurement? Because I mean I, I’ve seen this too many times where it’s like, well up here we’re not seeing any, any conversions, but it’s like, well you’re only looking at last click. And it’s like once he cut this, all of a sudden all conversion stop and it’s just like, wait, what happened? And it’s like, well that’s feeding down here. Do you guys, are you guys working on anything like that?

(22:46):

So where we’re at right now, from my perspective, like the strategy team, we’ve got a group of folks internally that align on the strategic investments we’re making on the product side over time. Attribution’s definitely come up where we’re at right now is choose a wants to be really good at putting you in a position to by media and target the right audience. There’s other companies that do attribution really well that will connect to our system, so chooses a hub, you know you can bring your data and place it in. You can bring any white lists that you’ve got in. You can bring IP lists and you can also connect different reporting partners and folks that would be probably better positioned on the attribution side. To tell you what truth is, one caution I always get folks is a free tool that’s out there as Google analytics GA.

(23:32):

They do a great job of being the judge, jury and executioner on their specific campaigns and their closed network. Google has a hard time though on the open internet when it’s not buying from it’s system computing and reading things same way. So I always say when you’re looking at attribution, when you’re looking at those things, don’t rely on the free product you get, but for what you pay, you get what you pay for and that situation. And there’s a lot of tools out there that will be able to be an independent third party to read Google, to read, choose all, and to put you in a position to really understand what’s going on.

(24:04):

Yeah. Do you, do you guys have any preferred partners there or do you have anyone, cause I, I, we use Google analytics, but I mean we’d just get super creative in the UTMs that we’re using so that we can tie user journey and all that type of stuff. But if there, if you had someone in mind,

(24:18):

we do a few folks, we’re soon to announce a, you know, a reporting partnership and some deeper integrations there I should say. I should say also, I’m super excited that she was always really tried to make the programmatic media media buying process simple. And as we’ve looked at the way that we want, these are experienced to evolve this year our product and engineering team are making investments to expand some of the capabilities on the platform. We’re really connected, sorry. We’re really focused on this connected TV piece where you are investing already. We’re focused on data onboarding because we understand that privacy is going to become more of an issue as we move forward. And the last piece is going to be a reporting, um, so that you can get the information that you want and need in the platform. But also on the reporting side, we’re making more of our API data points available to third party partners so that when you connect with them and we could potentially refer to you, one, refer you to one here, um, in the next few weeks, uh, that you’re going to get all of the information you need within their platform on the attribution side, which is what they do really well.

(25:23):

Yeah, no, I can’t wait for that. I’m always a anything to tie the data together. I’m all for it. I mean we’ve been bringing up data quite a bit. I mean as we’ve seen the California law passed the GDPR, I mean how are you guys able to use these data partners and I guess what are, what are some of the things that you see in the future when it comes to data privacy? I personally think that because people want stuff quickly and all that, they’re going to give up more data. Everyone talks about like they really care other data privacy, but I th I don’t think it’s really there. I think just people talk about it quite a bit. But from a regulatory standpoint and stuff like that, I mean we’re, what are you guys’ thoughts how you guys prepare them for that?

(26:00):

So the open internet is free unless you’re paying for like a New York times subscription that gets you access to like exclusive content. The open internet is ubiquitously free right now. I don’t see it being paid in the future. I don’t think you see it being paid in the future. Like we have all learned the internet that is free. So you’re exactly right that people are going to be willing to give up more data in order to continue to transact and consume information on the internet for free. I don’t want to pay for espn.com I don’t want to pay for cnn.com I don’t want to, I don’t want to pay for any of these places and I specifically don’t want to have to pay a lot of different publishers to get access to their content. So as things evolve, I see CCPA really having a heavy influence on what other States are going to do.

(26:51):

We’re running campaigns in California right now. Chisel has to be compliant within the CCPA space and if you have to be compliant CCPA, it’s going to be easier to be to make all your campaigns look the same way. Right? So the way that I see it evolving is at the agency side, like those conversations need to be happening with every client right now. There could be a situation where third party data changes drastically in the future as it has for Facebook, for the open internet. You just saw the announcement a couple of weeks ago that Google’s planning to get rid of cookies in two years, that’s going to drastically change the environment. So it, those conversations aren’t happening now or haven’t started now with agencies and their partners or brands haven’t started thinking about this stuff now and how to actually use the data they have that needs to happen immediately because you need to start preparing your strategy for how to use that.

(27:45):

And I referenced the person earlier that had worked at Starcom and a couple other places, but uh, they’re using their data now and trying to get even more data with the use of that data and those campaigns. So, Hey, we know this something about this person, can we get a little bit more information? And I think that’s what you’ll see is people focusing on just capturing as much as they can over time. Cause at the end of the day, that first part of it is better than the third party source that you can look up and you should have better performance against it.

(28:14):

Yeah. So I’m not sure if I answered your question. No, no. And I think the biggest thing that that got answered is everyone talks about their data privacy and all that, but as soon as you say, well it’s going to cost you 150 bucks a month to access the internet and you’re like, all right, go ahead and take my data. You know what I mean? Like

(28:28):

absolutely no, I thing I think about it as, I mean everybody’s holding on to their data, their email addresses, any information they have with like, you know, clenched fists right now. And that’s fine for the moment. But [inaudible] I would encourage brands and agencies to push their brands to start utilizing that specifically in the independent agency space. So that middle market agency space that there’s a lot out there, you know, breaches, data breaches and privacy and all that kind of stuff. But like that that is, that is the, that information that you have is more valuable than anything else you could put into the, into a system like chisel and we’ll get you a better performance. So if they’re not using it now, they need to start using it in order to, to figure out what their policies are around usage, what their best practices are, and then what they can really gain from leveraging it across their media buys. Yeah.

(29:26):

No, I love it cause it’s like the, the, the bigger barrier to enter the big wall that’s up just you gotta be a better marketer, then you gotta get more creative and stuff like that. And too, to your point, the power of first party data, figure out ways that you can collect that, whether it just give a ton of information and I mean, just figure out ways to get that first party data in a way that people are willing to exchange their information for whatever you’re putting out. And I think, yeah. [inaudible] there’s a ton of opportunity there. But continuing on with data. One thing that we’ve talked about too is is the programmatic TV. I think there’s the connected TV, programmatic TV, there’s advanced TV, there’s all these new ways of TV. How would you explain the difference between traditional TV buying and advanced TV?

(30:08):

Yeah, so broadcast media buying gets you audience at scale. You know there used to be three TV networks, ABC, NBC, CBS and broadcast media buy and got to everyone across the entire country, cable fragmentation, more channels, all that. That whole landscape has changed over time and you’ve been able to get more specific with cable television buys and with connected TV we’re seeing just a further segmentation and specificity in the audiences that you can target. You’ve seen this that you can go into our third party data library and then pick a zip code and learn the third party data, learn the zip code and only hit the audience that you want. Add a more cost effective price point. So with connected TV, that’s really the benefit right now is an advertiser that’s really looking for a very specific region can transact a beautiful piece of creative.

(31:01):

Onto a [inaudible] Apple TV app or a Roku device and hit that audience directly without having to make a huge commitment to a station in their local market. So w where I see it headed is huge opportunity for organizations like yours. I mentioned this right? I had of getting on, but in 20% of television budgets are transacted programmatically right now it’s projected over the next five to seven years to move to 80%. So you look at some of the larger technology providers that are trying to double down in this space and trade desk is one of them. Uh, [inaudible] know they’re, they’re putting all their eggs in that basket cause they understand all these huge broadcast budgets that our holding company agencies are going to shift. And then typically what you see in the middle market, they’ll follow what the large advertisers do at some point. And they’re going, we’re, we’re going to shift there as well.

(31:52):

So huge opportunity, big blue ocean right now. And I’m excited about the advancements that chisel is making there as well. You know, we’ve seen some of our competitors come out really hot with some marketing messages that we are a CTV platform now. Like we want to be a place that you transact all of your media and display video, audio, audio and connected TV because we think those campaigns work symbolic symbiotically with one another. Like you have to use the data from an audio campaign or a display campaign to inform your connected TV buy. So we’ve been sitting in the background understanding what people are doing and then building really good products in the background that are scheduled for release over the next few quarters.

(32:35):

Cool. Are able to share anything there and I, yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah cause I mean in, correct me if I’m wrong, but basically you had the ability where if you’re on a banner ad or whatever it may be, someone clicks super cheap, cost per clicks, they get to your website, you can literally retarget them and serve a TV ad based off of individual pages they went to if they just went to your site in general.

(32:56):

Absolutely not the reverse of that. So I’m a cord cutter now and you know, watch television through my spectrum app or a myriad of other apps on the Apple TV device. But once I see an ad, if, if you toggle on our cross device metric is water across devices functionality as well. Once we’ve, once I’ve consumed that video, you can then target me with display on on the other side of that too and continue to hit my household. But those messages to prompt some sort of buying decision or transaction. Yeah,

(33:29):

yeah. I mean that’s essentially, and that’s what we’re trying to do is work on a four piece series or whatever. And I mean you guys have marketing decision makers and company sizes and literally like whenever it shows and all of a sudden banner ad shows they get to the website and then retarded them on search when they’re looking for marketing agencies. I mean like to your point, there’s a, there’s a ton of different tools and I think a lot of people focus on what’s the one tool it’s going to do it. But it’s a matter of having a tool chest full of different tools. And I think you guys have done really well at, at having the radio, the TV, the banners and, and uh, something else that, that keeps coming up too that I think is pretty, uh, um, interesting is just geo-fencing and in general. And you guys can do that too, right?

(34:10):

Absolutely. Geo-fencing, geo framing. Uh, we’ve got a really great partner with factual, which is one of the leaders in that space and they, they’re essentially like a geography data company that you pipe in to choose as well with your chisel subscription or your choose all access. We can provide access to a self service factual login as well. But uh, that spaces is really amazing. And the two things you should think about there, there’s a difference between geo-fencing, geo framing. Geo-fencing is real time, like we’re all in the EIC studio right now. If we put a geo fence around this particular location, we’d be serving as on mobile and app inventory. And then geo framing is let’s put a fence around all the taco bell locations in the greater Phoenix area and target people that have been there in the past. So if they had visited that radius and then they went home, we’re going to be able to see 365 days in the past or more, whatever you decide.

(35:09):

People that have been there and then hit them on their devices once they move on from those locations. Guys go 365 days back. Yeah, I mean even longer than that. So there’s people that want to hit specific conferences like CES was a few weeks ago. We’ve had advertisers that are like, I want to hit every CS over the past five years and we look at what those date windows were and then pull devices that have been there. One thing you gotta think about the data is the less reliable the farther back you go. Cause I’ve had three cell phones in the last five due to, you know, damages and and dropping it and water and things like that. But over the past three, three 65 it’s really, really cool data to use. We’re using that particular tactic for a network of pizza locations in Kansas city, st Louis, Phoenix, Denver right now, and doing conquesting of their competitors as well.

(35:57):

So, uh, it’s a really cool tactic that you can integrate within things as well. But the thing to remember though is scale is always critical and huge. Like you could do all these really cool things, but sometimes it’s better to cast a wider net at first to understand what works, uh, than to get really tight. So a lot of times you’ll talk about these things with partners and like, Oh, I want to do third party data, learn a new zip code, I wanted to device ID and then I want to put it in like just around Starbucks on Scottsdale in 21st or whatever. And the delivery of that came in at $10,000 to do that. You’re not going to spend $10,000 doing that. But it’s a great tool to inform clients who may have misalignment with their budget to what they’re trying to accomplish.

(36:38):

And to your point, I mean there are different ways to prospect where, I mean going back to the CS, you could target anyone that’s in CS, whether it be on TV with banner ads and all of that where maybe there’s not many people that are interested in your message or, or what you’re offering. And some may be using either radio or banner ads where the CPMs are much cheaper. Those people that click or the website, then you can target them. And just again, just figuring out what tool to use to identify where they’re at in their decision making process and where they’re, they’re uh, they’re looking at you.

(37:06):

Yeah, media mix is critical and having that in one spot. That’s why I say we’d like to put everything into chisel is important as well because in a, in a couple of minutes you could toggle off a campaign that has served its purpose and then move budget to the next destination. Retargeting. Once you have captured that prospect pool or that, those folks that are interacted in these certain geographies or radiuses within a geo framing set,

(37:32):

what’s been the coolest? I guess a strategy that you’ve seen executed? Uh,

(37:35):

yeah, a good question. So we’ve worked with a ton of great partners, oppression, mentioned them, you know, verbally out loud, fast fashion companies, a large like OEM that does like refrigerators and specifically I liked that came in. It’s boring but specifically like that campaign because we were targeting, you have contract buyers for large industrial equipment and I’ve seen really good results there as well. Health care, health insurance. Um, Ellen had a great um, home goods and home supplies. I’m trying to think of what vertical that would be called home improvement and interiors, uh, where we targeted and tried to acquire customers across a, a nationwide network to get people to get in store foot traffic and show attribution there as well. I’d say that was a pretty successful campaign. Uh, higher education. There’s a someone that produces materials that we work with for accounting exams or uh, real estate licensure exams and we’ve seen really good results. They’re getting them, you know, acquisitions in the five to $10 range of people actually downloading and converting on their product and their systems as well. So a lot of fun ones.

(38:52):

Those will be tough. I mean, outside of you guys’ platform, how do you really target the decision makers? And it’s very, there’s lots of ways to do it, but I’m trying to think of like something that’s kind of inspired and it wasn’t in the notes or anything that’s on guard. If I, if I let you know, maybe we can get on the phone and yeah, I’ll let you know. Um, and can you guys actually attribute foot Travis on know the, the, the geo framing and all that? You can target people based on where they bank. Can you put like a conversion zone or something around here? We can do that.

(39:19):

There’s a lot of partners that will tell you they can do it at budgets that are not built for scale. And the truth is that data is pretty unreliable. So there are thresholds, uh, of reliability based on the investment that you’re making. So the more impressions you deliver, and typically that means the more budget you spend, the more accurate that data is going to be. So yes, we can do that. We always advise and Ellen and our sales team and account management team are trained on what those thresholds are and what we would recommend. So there’s folks sometimes that we’ll say, Hey, we don’t believe we’re going to get accurate data because we wanna be a good partner and be transparent, honest, and they may go work with somebody else, but I don’t want to tell something, somebody is something that we can’t do. So yes, we can do it. Um, caveat being there are certain minimum pression delivery thresholds that you need to meet to have it be accurate and reliable for,

(40:12):

yeah, no, I mean that makes sense. I mean, you need statistical significance to be able to attribute whether it’s working or not. And so, no, I mean the transparency, I think that goes a long way because there are a lot of people, companies, vendors in the space that will just tell you what you want to hear over promise and under deliver. Um, so yeah, kinda, this has all been great. As we kinda wrap up, what are, uh, uh, I guess the biggest thing that you would tell either advertisers or just in this space? I mean, what, what is something that you wish everyone could know about chisel or, or why, why they should choose chisel?

(40:43):

Yeah, so was a general commentary. What I would tell advertisers is what I tell myself every day is I’ve got a ton of ideas and there’s a ton of things you can do, but making a commitment to something and seeing it out and ensuring that you have proper intelligence on if it’s working or not before making the next decision is very important. So we’ve made some investments on our internal sales team this year and I guess I’ve got some commentary from another sales rep. He’s like, dude, you’re changing too much. He’s like, we need to see these things work. And I was like, it was a good reminder to me this morning to say, okay, we have made a number of different adjustments and I need to be certain that those are having positive impact before I start pivoting. It’s not any different from marketing. If you start a campaign and you expect something to happen for $500 over the course of 48 hours, it’s very unlikely that that is to be the outcome. So have a position, commit to a direction, commit to that length of time, and then make a, make a pivot.

(41:43):

Can you send it any better? I mean, it’s, it’s see that too much where, yeah, 48 72 hours in and it’s like, Oh, we haven’t seen anything. It’s like, well, the machine learning hasn’t even had enough time to even get anything to, to run with it. And yeah, just sticking with the plan, having a clear sense of direction on time, timing. What does success look like? What does failure look like? And it’s just planning.

(42:02):

Yeah. So that’s my piece of advice for sort of the external audience for why somebody should use, choose a whole ton of reasons. I would start with the partnership piece. So we’re focused on a ton of things that are very important for brands. Simplifying the programmatic media buying process. We have a great UX UI team that has made it very easy to use. Uh, what can be a complex system or process. We’ve distilled it down to the core components that you need, but can also provide some of that granular information on the reporting. So why somebody should use us. Simplification, continuing support and education. We’ve got the chisel Academy and then also education courses that you’re prompted take within platform over your time investing in the chisel DSP. And the last piece is flexibility. We love partnership, we want longterm partnerships and we’re willing to make situations work for a multitude of different types of clients.

(42:58):

But overarching reason, like I said earlier, the DSP and the programmatic media space has been [inaudible] commoditized a lot of different folks to work with. And my advice is always invest, investigate the technology, you know, negotiate the pricing or whatever fees are associated with it. Like you don’t get the picture. But really what you’re looking at in a commoditized space is who do you want to work with? And I would put our team up against anybody in the space. So, whether it’s Mel, Cary, Chaz, J Allen, Kirk, multitude of other people internally, Ashley, Katie, our team is really good at partnership on top of having a really great system to use. So say why you choose all, we can do everything, like I said, display, video, audio, but the people that you’d be working with at our office and in our program is top notch.

(43:49):

Yeah, no, I love that. Relationships and community, it’s everything. So I mean, you guys are taking a great, uh, thing in the space that is typically only been able to, uh, venues by enterprise level people and made it the bared entry a little bit lower, which is awesome. And so if anyone were to want to reach out, how would they, who would they reach out to? And I guess how would they find you guys? Your cell phone number? I can reach out to

(44:13):

Ellen, E L L E N F chisel C H O, Z L e.com.

(44:19):

Awesome. Well, I appreciate the time and, uh, just looking forward to continuing to, uh, bring more clients on and we’re about to launch our stuff on there. So

(44:27):

yeah, it’s really working with you. Thanks for your time.

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